Tarot de Marseille Colors?

stella01904

MM ~ Anyone notice how the "reproduction" Conver decks are colored differently? My beloved Heron is much different than a Lo Scarabeo. This leads me to wondering if the originals are not colored, or have faded so much that the colors are imperceptible. Does anyone have a link to images of the originals? I can't seem to google them. Color seems like it would have some importance, especially with a TdM! A red sword says something much different than one that is not red! BB, Stella
 

Little Baron

I have wondered this also, Stella - especially in relation to swords. I know little about the subject but wonder if there was actually many different colourings, due to the fact that there were many different printings made by different people in different places - and at different times. I imagine that there was less accessability to coloured ink in those days, so often, they used what they had, which might not correspond to the printing made by another printer.

Just a thought ... have no idea how correct it is.

LB
 

Kissa

Camoin says (and he must be right, cause he is THE heir) that colours were changed when came automatic printers because they had a very limited range of colours available (was it 4?). so the colours of the grimaud are the illustration of this limited range.
older decks have nicer colours.

considering that the colours were changed and still are by every new artist designing his re-creation, i'm very sceptic whether/how the colours should be interpreted at all in reading TdM cards.

as much as numerology and designs do make sense to me, colours leave me very sceptical.

some authors base much of their interpretation on the meaning of colours. some don't. i recall sédillot belongs to the first kind and i think jodo is more into numerology and mystical symbology.
i say "i think" and "i recall" because i am not into TdM right now at all. yet your question is an interesting one and i will eagerly wait for responses by the gurus.. ;)

my two cents,

kissa
 

jmd

One needs to be somewhat careful in reflecting on colouration.

In one aspect, there were more clear directions of iconic meaning with various colours (and especially particular shades of these colours - such as the blue used for Marian depictions).

Also, and though I do value very much the works of Camoin, and what he has gifted the Tarot world with both his writings, his decks, and his research, being biological descendent does not make one more accurate.

His comments about colours were, in any case, about a specific deck (the Conver), printed at a particular time (or times, if the reduction of used colours is being discussed).

What of other Marseille renditions? Perhaps, by the time of the Conver, certain elements of intrinsic merit were already dropped (or lost), including colour-coding.

It may also be the case that, for example, a particular printer who was running out of particular pigments may have decided not to be as careful with a set of imprints going to a particular market it deemed as not important (for example, some 'distant' place).

A useful question would therefore also have a look at various Marseille and see if there are constants across these, and whether this may have some intrinsic quality.

Still, the comments, therefore, I agree with...
 

Fulgour

Dust in the Wind

Considering how few decks have survived the ravages
of time, mice and rats, and the aggressively prudent,
I often allow myself to imagine that there were decks
made that weren't coloured using the crude stenciling,
but rather were distributed to be creatively enhanced
by the individual owners. This is sometimes still done,
and it's easy to think how anyone wanting to could do
an excellent job specially personalising their own Tarot.
 

Emeraldgirl

Fulgour said:
Considering how few decks have survived the ravages
of time, mice and rats, and the aggressively prudent,
I often allow myself to imagine that there were decks
made that weren't coloured using the crude stenciling,
but rather were distributed to be creatively enhanced
by the individual owners. This is sometimes still done,
and it's easy to think how anyone wanting to could do
an excellent job specially personalising their own Tarot.

There are still a lot of black and white decks out there today. I only own 1 TdM deck and have only just started studying it after a few years of being an RWS girl but given the time when most of the first TdM decks were printed I think that basic availability would have a lot to do with the colours used. also found this website which deals a little with restoration of the cards:

http://www.camoin.com/en/restoration/restoration.asp
 

stella01904

MM ~ Great site, and the slideshow is interesting. The 1760 Conver shown there is actually colored like the Lo Scarabeo, (which does quite a bit to redeem the LS, even though they faked the 6 of Wands!). I come away thinking I should be paying more attention to geometry (not my forte :( ), still, as jmd said, descendency isn't necessarily accuracy. The bit about the Egyptian and Greek cults at Marseilles is fascinating...Maybe the definitive proto deck will surface. In the meantime I wish there were more books, more people delving into Marseilles. Everyone seems to think it's ugly, but it's a more real Tarot than anything else out there. BB, Stella
 

rox

On Marseille Colors

It may be appropriate here, though a bit long (not too long, I hope), to cite an extract from the booklet accompanying Flornoy's reconstitution of the Noblet atouts. The Dodal also employs these seven colours. It is of course impossible to know what the hues actually looked like at the time they were applied. It is relatively safe to suggest that tastes ran to BRIGHT in the 17th and early 18th centuries. That was certainly the case in the Middle Ages. Colours were reduced in number by later editors largely to cut production costs. They were by then unaware that the choice and position of the colours was not there to look pretty, that the motive was operativity, beyond mind and analysis. So here goes:

"Jean Noblet’s tarot employs the seven symbolic colours, colours partially defined by the ancient traditional phrase still sung by today's Compagnons du Devoir :

White, the tears of Maître Jacques
Black, the earth which bore him
Red, the blood he shed
Blue, the blows he suffered
Yellow, perseverance
Green, hope

Two other colours join this list: light blue, which appears as grey in other old tarots, and flesh colour.
It was these oracular phrases that were in the minds of the image-makers as they coloured their drawings. They worked for the sacred, and they knew it. Only being effective interested them, only the subliminal message mattered. Drawings speak to the intellect, while the colours of these images, through their mass and their places in relation to each other, speak to our unconscious.

White, the tears of Maître Jacques
Jean Noblet’s original tarot no longer contains white. In printing, white is the colour of the paper, and the paper of 1650, which was originally ecru, has by now turned completely yellow. White are Maître Jacques’ tears. It is the colour of emotional saturation, of catharsis, of the « thanks, I’ve understood » which one says to life. It is the impulse that makes you conscious of being connected with the surrounding world; it is accession to heightened perception, the rediscovery of our original consciousness.
We can observe very little white in the drawings of the Tarot. It can be used to emphasize the inner nature of the figures, especially in terms of their eyes, but details in this colour are generally rare, apart from the faces and hands, which are always white. This feature appears on the two 17th-century tarots that have come down to us: that of Noblet, of course, and Jacques Viéville. It is understood that the card itself is white.

Black, the earth which bore him
Black as the virgins holding a child that our image-makers so loved to portray. Black and a virgin, bearer of the universal consciousness: the Earth. Always new, always virginal, ever in motion, alive. Al kemit, the black earth of the Egyptian silt. The memory of the world, the humus of our consciousness, as much plant, animal and mineral as human. We are all linked within this memory.

Red, the blood he shed
Blood flows from a wound, leaves stains, and is cleaned. Who hasn’t endured bodily injuries? Our image-makers apply red to evoke our consciousness of having seen our own blood flow, having suffered. Painful memories which are written into our "official" history and, at the same time, deformed as they are inscribed in the unconscious. Our behaviour is marked by these wounds. Many of our reflexes, our spontaneous reactions, are born of them.

Blue, the blows he suffered
Blows to body and soul, those which leave no visible trace but function insidiously. Who hasn’t received bruises to the soul? Blue is applied to indicate the active mass of all we have stowed away in the pressure-cooker of our unconscious. It is the colour of all we have forgotten.

Yellow, perseverance
That which we must always call forth in order to advance in life. Without it, nothing can be constructed. Endurance and courage.

Green, hope
The certainty that we can change, that life is ours, that « tomorrow will be another day ». The acceptance of cyclical time, that of the mother and the eternal return.

Light Blue
The blue of sea-being, the blue perceived in the womb, that of
« understanding », of being part of the world which surrounds us.
It is the blue of the Virgin Mary, that of the ocean of possible worlds in which the Spirit, when it incarnates, draws its ability to adapt to the times.

Flesh colour
It is our way of living; the human entrenched in all his humanity. Our presence in the world, our way of holding ourselves upright in the social sphere, our emotional reactions, positive and negative, our joys and tears."
 

le pendu

I've been spending a lot of time lately comparing the Dodal, Noblet, Conver, Vieville, Tarot of Paris, Payen and other decks, and looking very specifically at color.

My own thoughts are that, for the most part, the similarities in line are much more consistent than the similarities of color. It is very much as if the tradition of the line harkens back more carefully than the tradition of color.

There are some cases where all the cards agree, Le Pape wears a red robe for instance, but once you go beyond that, there is disagreement.

I would be hesitant to read too much into the coloring of any deck, as my personal feeling is that the lines seem to have faithfully carried a tradition, but that the colors for the most part have not.

robert
 

le pendu

Rox,

Thanks for sharing Jean-Claude Flornoy's thoughts on this with us. As someone who has spent years meticulously reproducing the original cards, his views are surely worth serious contemplation.

Info on Jean-Claude Flornoy's reproductions:
http://www.tarot-history.com/index.html

robert