A Jewish Pope?

kwaw

The Catelin Geofroy 1557 is of interest for the history of the TdM. It is the firt deck with numbered major arcana and those that remain follow the TdM ordering. The hanged man differs from the Italian traitor image and is clearly modeled upon woodcuts of Jewish executions, and is probably the model for the hanged man in some later TdM decks [such as the Tarot Classic].

The Tower card has a devil behind a woman who is 'dancing' along with one hand in the air and the other lifting her skirt, out of which a bag is falling. Next to her is the head and hand of a figure with a fiddle. Behind them a building is burning. The fiddler possibly connects the burning building with Rome? {Referncing Nero who fiddled while Rome burnt?]

What is very peculiar about it is that on the back of the Popes hands are two concentric rings, like the 'Jewish ring' that Jews had to wear as a mark of identity and used in Christian art to identify any figure as a Jew. Are they Jewish rings on his hands, or is anyone aware of an alternative meaning?

The Geofroy major arcana can be found in Kaplan, p.132 Vol 1, and p.303 Vol2.

Kwaw

jmd

Even if we accept that the double ring may have been connnected as a symbol of Jewishness in Christian art of the period, having it on the gloves of a Pope would only confirm, perhaps, a view of the Vicar of Christ having the stigmata.

If this was further presented by crypto-jews, it could also indicate that here is someone, at the head of the church that also tended to often persecute Jews, yet worshipping one as a God.

If designed by protestants, or other anti-catholics, it may have other meanings. And if by a catholic, again further possibilities, without in the least indicating a Jewish Pope...

... but of course, as the see of St Peter, it remains the see of what was first occupied by a Jewish Pope

kwaw

jmd said:
Even if we accept that the double ring may have been connnected as a symbol of Jewishness in Christian art of the period, having it on the gloves of a Pope would only confirm, perhaps, a view of the Vicar of Christ having the stigmata.

If this was further presented by crypto-jews, it could also indicate that here is someone, at the head of the church that also tended to often persecute Jews, yet worshipping one as a God.

If designed by protestants, or other anti-catholics, it may have other meanings. And if by a catholic, again further possibilities, without in the least indicating a Jewish Pope...

... but of course, as the see of St Peter, it remains the see of what was first occupied by a Jewish Pope

The hanged man in the Geofroy is clearly modeld upon the execution of Jews. Why then the Jewish ring upon the hands of the Pope [there is no clear image of gloves, it appears on his hands]. Has he 'blood' on his hands? The 'blood' of the Jews?

I don't know what the double ring means. In Christian art of the times it was use to identify Jews. Whatever it means, it was not a conventional or mainstream, orthodox meaning that has been allowed to survive to us.

Personally I am coming round to the idea that the Marseille pattern is connected with the Huegenots.

Kwaw

Sophie

kwaw said:
Personally I am coming round to the idea that the Marseille pattern is connected with the Huguenots.

This is an interesting proposition - and works geographically too - do we have any idea if Catelin Geoffroy was of the Reformed persuasion?

It might - or might not - be relevant to note that Protestants in France were drawn from the same places, and people, as the Cathar and Waldensian heresies some 400 years before. Though neither Waldensians nor Protestants were dualists, of course, all three privileged the direct access to G-d and the primacy of grace over works (furthermore it has been shown that the dualism of most Cathar Parfaits was exaggerated by their detractors, and was generally more of a gnostic adaptation of Christianity).

It might also be relevant that among Huguenots were many crypto-Jews (Maranes).

And above all - many Huguenots were artisans.

Waldensians and Protestants flourished in Lombardy too (with some centuries between them) - here in Geneva, Lombards came as refugees both during the Waldensian and the Huguenot period. So if the pattern is Lombard, we can still look for Huguenot influence. But of course the majority of Huguenots came from the South of France (including my own ancestors on my paternal grandmother's side, who seemed to have been crypto-Jewish Huguenots).

But remember this, for Huguenots, Jews, Cathars and Waldensians: they share a distates for image. This does not mean that Huguenots, crypt-Jewish, Cathars and Waldensian artisans did not make images: but would they have used this method to make a document that was doctrinal? I doubt it - wouldn't it be more likely that they use it to polemic against their Catholic opponents - stuff them in cards, lampoon them? At least, for some cards it is possible. Many others in no way suggest the lampoon (the three cosmic cards, for starters).

Look at the cross on the Pope. It is the Huguenot cross without the dove.

kwaw

Helvetica said:
And above all - many Huguenots were artisans.
QUOTE]

Kaplan makes mention that some have suggested a swiss origin for the Marseille pattern; but against such claim says many French card makers moved to Switzerland for economic reasons. Of course he is right that there were probably economic migrants, but at the time the primary reason for migration was religious [three civil wars in 16th century France between protestants and catholics; periods of tolerance with outbreaks of massacre leading to civil war]. Migration of card makers was to protestant England or more commonly Switzerland, perhaps there is an element of economics in that taxes were lower, but given the great anxieties of leaving home and family, perhaps greater then than now, I would imagine that some idealistic, religious motivation would have played some part too in providing sufficient motivation to make such an endeavor.

Kwaw

kwaw

jmd said:
Even if we accept that the double ring may have been connnected as a symbol of Jewishness in Christian art of the period,

The double ring was a symbol of Jewish identity, there is no may about it, it is well documented.

Kwaw

Sophie

kwaw said:
many French card makers moved to Switzerland for economic reasons. Of course he is right that there were probably economic migrants, but at the time the primary reason for migration was religious

There was a great migration of artisans to Switzerland and to Geneva (independant city-state) from the South of France between the 16th-18th centuries - Catholics and Huguenots came. My paternal grandmother's family were artisans who came for a mix of religious and economic reasons. But migrants didn't settle only in Protestant areas. The Burdel family of card-makers, who made the famous Burdel tarot, for instance, went to Fribourg - a bilingual Catholic city with strong ties to France (French-speaking Fribourg commanders and men made up at least one regular regiment of Swiss troops employed by the French kings right up to the Revolution - and later, during the Empire).

There was also a lot of migration from the South of France to Lyon and to other cities further North, but still in France - again, for economic reasons.

And of course there was the important artisan-journeymen tradition (Compagnons) - with its two main strands - the Compagnons de Maître Jacques (Catholic) and the Compagnons de Salomon (Protestant, but issued of formerly antic-clerical/borderline heretic medieval communities). Certainly the latter would have had no liking for the Pope. But even the Compagnons de Maître Jacques were known to be rather rebellious Catholics who mocked the clergy, despite their own faith.

Cerulean

While it is fun to speculate--are there card or gambling games

that are similar to tarot among such populations of Jewish ancestry and Huguenauts?

The branch of Puritans that came to the U.S. in the 1770s--I've not heard card playing was practised or commonly known. I have heard and read of card playing in Portugese, Spanish and others of mostly Catholic-based ancestry that spread to native populations (Japanese in Nagasaki from Portugese by the 1500s-1600; Native American tribes who did not use tarot, but card gambling games of the 19th century from the web-based playing card journal someone posted elsewhere).

My curiousity, wondering if this pertinent to the thread.

Regards,

Cerulean

kwaw

Helvetica said:
And of course there was the important artisan-journeymen tradition (Compagnons) - with its two main strands - the Compagnons de Maître Jacques (Catholic) and the Compagnons de Salomon (Protestant, but issued of formerly antic-clerical/borderline heretic medieval communities). Certainly the latter would have had no liking for the Pope. But even the Compagnons de Maître Jacques were known to be rather rebellious Catholics who mocked the clergy, despite their own faith.

This is probably totally irrelevant, but wasn't there a catholic confraternity called 'Gentleman of the Spoon' set up in swiss territories to counter the rise of protestantism? Probably totally unconnected and a bit of a stretch, but I was thinking there could be then some protestant polemics in the 'fools' spoon?

Kwaw

Sophie

kwaw said:
This is probably totally irrelevant, but wasn't there a catholic confraternity called 'Gentleman of the Spoon' set up in swiss territories to counter the rise of protestantism? Probably totally unconnected and a bit of a stretch, but I was thinking there could be then some protestant polemics in the 'fools' spoon?

Absolutely, but not in Switzerland - it was made up of Catholics from Geneva and their close Savoyard allies, who wanted Geneva to return under Savoy rule (and Catholicism) after its unilateral declaration of independence when the city and its territories went Protestant. Interestingly (for me

) one of the HQs for these Gentlemen was the village where I grew up (Confignon, still a Catholic village), and another the area where I now reside: I can see one of the castles from which a number of attacks were launched on Geneva from where I am sitting now.

No idea if it has anything to do with Le Mat's spoon, however!! It is not impossible. I am not sure how well-known outside the area (i.e. among card-makers) these Gentlemen of the Spoon were, but Geneva certainly had a huge Southern French Huguenot influx in the 16th-17th centuries - in the 16th century they flooded in after the St Bartholomew massacre.

The Savoyards failed to retake Geneva, which remained independent until it joined Switzerland in 1815, and Protestant. The last attempt to take it back was in December 1602 - they were routed: an event we still celebrate yearly in Geneva with a huge festival.

A Jewish Pope?

kwaw

jmd

kwaw

Sophie

kwaw

kwaw

Sophie

Cerulean

kwaw

Sophie