The Fools' Journey - Page 3

wandking · 08-06-2005

LOL, I'm still more interested in finding out where the earliest actual Fools' Journey was written, which is why I started this board in the first place.

Huck · 08-06-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wandking

LOL, I'm still more interested in finding out where the earliest actual Fools' Journey was written, which is why I started this board in the first place.

I would bet, it's not the first, but what about Ulysses (the original)?
What's your conditions, when you accept something as "earliest, actual Fool's Journey"? You didn't jump to the Fool's Ship, which I offered before, and which at least was a greater step to develop the fool's picture.

How you define "your" Fool's Journey?

Huck · 08-06-2005

"However", in the meaning as Patrick suggested it and as it seems to be American usage, looks to me as a typical German misunderstanding about English language (from England) ... A German learns "how" = German "wie" and "ever" = German "immer" and when he learns later the seldom word "however", he naturally thinks and translates to his own mind "wie (auch) immer" ... which really has in German nothing to do with the logical function of a "jedoch", but mostly appears in language, when you've nothing better to say", "wie auch immer", if you wish to declare the current object of communication totally uninteresting, "wie auch immer", or if you really don't know, what's the talk was about, "wie auch immer" other fools interpreted the case you personally get no specific intelligence in the matter nor have you any bigger interest to get some. It's the typical nonverbal "shrugging with the shoulders" with an expressive interest to end the current communication and to turn concentration to the real object, which was a correct understanding of the Fool's Journey ... :-) and it's deeper hidden roots in history.
A German "jedoch" is a much more serious objection.

le pendu · 08-06-2005

In the US, that is "whatever".

It implies a lack of interest.

robert

**Ross G Caldwell** · 08-06-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wandking

LOL, I'm still more interested in finding out where the earliest actual Fools' Journey was written, which is why I started this board in the first place.

I don't know the answer.

I suppose there are different ways to take the question.

Do you mean the first time somebody literally wrote "Fool's journey"?

Or do you mean something broader, like the first time a simpleton went on a journey and had many experiences that made him wise?

Does it have to be associated with the tarot trumps? Or can it be any kind of story?

wandking · 10-06-2005

what I seek is potential roots for this popular Tarot legend.

Huck · 10-06-2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by wandking

what I seek is potential roots for this popular Tarot legend.

What is the oldest "legend" of this kind of Fool's journey you're speaking of (which is still a mystery), that you know?

wandking · 10-06-2005

I know of none, which is why I ask. There seems to be a proliferation of modern treks online. Well, I take that back, it seems Mathers did a brief version of something that might be construed as one. I'll check through my records. Don't you guys Know of any that are older?

wandking · 10-06-2005

Here it is: Not exactly a Fools' Journey as such but a related transition of the trumps. Perhaps if we broaden the topic to include ascensions or even transitions like the following example by Mathers it will be more lucrative. I'd say I can probably find something like this by Levi as well but still I'd like to see Fools Journey in print from as late as the turn of the century.

“The Human Will (1) (The Magician) enlightened by Science (2) (The High Priestess) and manifested by Action (3) (The Empress) should find its Realization (4) (The Emperor) in deeds of Mercy and Beneficence. (5) (The Hierophant) The Wise Disposition (6) (The Lovers) of this will give Victory (7) (The Chariot) through Equilibrium (8) (Justice) and Prudence (9) (The Hermit), over the fluctuations of Fortune. (10) (Wheel of Fortune) Fortitude (11) (Strength), sanctified by Sacrifice of Self (12) (The Hanged Man), will triumph over Death itself (13) (Death), and thus a Wise Combination (14) (Temperance) will enable him to defy Fate. (15) (The Devil) In each Misfortune (16) (The Tower) he will see the Star of Hope (17) (The Star) shine through the twilight of Deception; (18) (The Moon) and ultimate Happiness (19) (The Sun) will be the Result (20) (Judgement). Folly (0) (The Fool), on the other hand, will bring about an evil Reward. (21)” (The World)

venicebard · 10-06-2005

That narrative makes a beautiful poem... till the end, where he completely spoils it. Doesn't it seem totally artificial the way he turns it around at the end to rain on the parade? Why is the Fool plopped in where he couldn't possibly belong? what were those GD guys on, opium?

I should think 'twere better ended with triumph, since that's what the World signifies, as in the expression, "I'd give you the world!" If he read it as 'the worldly', then he either missed the Devil card or put too strict an anti-cosmic (Gnostic purist?) twinge on it. Too bad, it was nice up till then.

wandking Citizen Join Date: 22 Dec 2004 Location: alabama, USA Posts: 478	LOL, I'm still more interested in finding out where the earliest actual Fools' Journey was written, which is why I started this board in the first place. Last edited by wandking; 08-06-2005 at 11:00.

08-06-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #21

Huck Citizen Join Date: 02 Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 2,339	However "However", in the meaning as Patrick suggested it and as it seems to be American usage, looks to me as a typical German misunderstanding about English language (from England) ... A German learns "how" = German "wie" and "ever" = German "immer" and when he learns later the seldom word "however", he naturally thinks and translates to his own mind "wie (auch) immer" ... which really has in German nothing to do with the logical function of a "jedoch", but mostly appears in language, when you've nothing better to say", "wie auch immer", if you wish to declare the current object of communication totally uninteresting, "wie auch immer", or if you really don't know, what's the talk was about, "wie auch immer" other fools interpreted the case you personally get no specific intelligence in the matter nor have you any bigger interest to get some. It's the typical nonverbal "shrugging with the shoulders" with an expressive interest to end the current communication and to turn concentration to the real object, which was a correct understanding of the Fool's Journey ... :-) and it's deeper hidden roots in history. A German "jedoch" is a much more serious objection. __________________ Huck "getting it home to the writing desk" Last edited by Huck; 09-06-2005 at 03:59.

08-06-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #23

le pendu Citizen Join Date: 22 Oct 2003 Location: Maison de Santé Posts: 3,078	In the US, that is "whatever". It implies a lack of interest. robert __________________ Increasingly suspicious of the "system of soothing" and sensibly inclining toward the infinitely superior "system of Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether".

08-06-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #24

wandking Citizen Join Date: 22 Dec 2004 Location: alabama, USA Posts: 478	All of the above, Ross what I seek is potential roots for this popular Tarot legend.

10-06-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #26

wandking Citizen Join Date: 22 Dec 2004 Location: alabama, USA Posts: 478	Ahhh yes! Here it is: Not exactly a Fools' Journey as such but a related transition of the trumps. Perhaps if we broaden the topic to include ascensions or even transitions like the following example by Mathers it will be more lucrative. I'd say I can probably find something like this by Levi as well but still I'd like to see Fools Journey in print from as late as the turn of the century. “The Human Will (1) (The Magician) enlightened by Science (2) (The High Priestess) and manifested by Action (3) (The Empress) should find its Realization (4) (The Emperor) in deeds of Mercy and Beneficence. (5) (The Hierophant) The Wise Disposition (6) (The Lovers) of this will give Victory (7) (The Chariot) through Equilibrium (8) (Justice) and Prudence (9) (The Hermit), over the fluctuations of Fortune. (10) (Wheel of Fortune) Fortitude (11) (Strength), sanctified by Sacrifice of Self (12) (The Hanged Man), will triumph over Death itself (13) (Death), and thus a Wise Combination (14) (Temperance) will enable him to defy Fate. (15) (The Devil) In each Misfortune (16) (The Tower) he will see the Star of Hope (17) (The Star) shine through the twilight of Deception; (18) (The Moon) and ultimate Happiness (19) (The Sun) will be the Result (20) (Judgement). Folly (0) (The Fool), on the other hand, will bring about an evil Reward. (21)” (The World) Last edited by wandking; 10-06-2005 at 11:31.

10-06-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #29

venicebard Citizen Join Date: 31 Mar 2005 Location: California, USA Posts: 922	Beautiful! That narrative makes a beautiful poem... till the end, where he completely spoils it. Doesn't it seem totally artificial the way he turns it around at the end to rain on the parade? Why is the Fool plopped in where he couldn't possibly belong? what were those GD guys on, opium? I should think 'twere better ended with triumph, since that's what the World signifies, as in the expression, "I'd give you the world!" If he read it as 'the worldly', then he either missed the Devil card or put too strict an anti-cosmic (Gnostic purist?) twinge on it. Too bad, it was nice up till then.

10-06-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #30

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