sebastienstarot

Hi All

I’m currently helping (or more like hindering!) two relatives in learning the tarot, and they are also using two books. The past few “lessons” have centralised on the astrological associations of the Major Arcana but we’ve run up against a problem.

When I was taught the tarot I was taught by my late Uncle and I learned an “old” variation of the associations whereas my cousins are learning the more commonly accepted associations, because I don’t want to confuse them, and the book they are using (Complete Book of Tarot) uses the new ones and they practice with that as well.

I’ve covered all the cards with them that use the same associations but on Friday we are doing: the Chariot, the Hanged Man, the Moon and Judgement, which are the differences.

The system I used has the following associations:

Chariot = Mars
Hanged Man = Pisces
Moon = Cancer
Judgement = Jupiter

So as you can see it is quite different. I just wondered if you could give me your views on the more commonly accepted associations and how you feel they work with the cards. I’d be grateful for anything you can give me.

Many thanks

Andy

jmd

There are more than two correlations that have been made, and there are important questions that also need to be asked as to whether any astrological correlations are intrinsic to the deck.

If they are not intrinsic, then correlations that seem to be meaningful may provide a useful basis.

Another question that may also be asked is whether you (or they) are using alphabetic correlations (with the Hebrew alphabet), and, if so, of the four most common correlations, which one. This becomes also important as Hebrew letters, in Kabalistic tradition, have astrological correlations.

Of course, I would personally advocate that the deck be studied and engaged primarily without such correlations, but rather simply looking carefully at the presented imagery. It may turn out, of course, and depending on which deck one uses, that astrological correlations emerge - and if using a 20th century deck, this is very likely, as many have incorporated the artist's preferred astrological views.

Fulgour

Beginning with One
for The Magician:

1. Aleph ~ Air
2. Beth ~ MOON
3. Gimmel ~ VENUS
4. Daleth ~ MARS
5. Heh ~ Aries
6. Waw ~ Taurus
7. Zayin ~ Gemini
8. Heth ~ Cancer
9. Teth ~ Leo
10. Yodh ~ Virgo
11. Kaph ~ MERCURY
12. Lamedh ~ Libra
13. Mem ~ Water
14. Nun ~ Scorpio
15. Samekh ~ Sagittarius
16. Ayin ~ Capricorn
17. Peh ~ SUN
18. Tsade ~ Aquarius
19. Qoph ~ Pisces
20. Res ~ JUPITER
21. Shin ~ Fire
22. Taw ~ SATURN

wizzle

Fulgor knows far more than I do, but I believe his approach is somewhat different in that it incorporates the elements.

Regarding the cards you questioned, here is an alternative set of astrological correspondences largely based on the Thoth deck plus assigning the "modern" planets:

Chariot - cancer
Hanged Man - neptune
Moon - pisces
Judgement - pluto
Fool - uranus

Fulgour

To get around an obvious anomaly ("absent" Earth)
some modern innovators choose to use these pairs:

URANUS = Air (Aleph)
NEPTUNE = Water (Mem)
PLUTO = Fire (Shin) ...and when did Pluto get hot?

PS: The Earth is found in the mysteries of noneother than
The High Priestess (the exaltation of the Moon in Taurus).
After all, these are the Major Arcana... there are secrets.

wizzle

har har har, hot pluto

I love it. But I suppose it makes some sort of sense in that pluto is the modern replacement for Mars as the ruler of Scorpio. Thinking of Scorpio as hot water isn't all that bad.

Fulgour

Mars still rules Scorpio, the fixed Water sign.
In my mind, it also rules Aries, cardinal Fire.

What astrologers have been doing to accomodate
the New Age folks with funny Tarot notions is to
give Aries a piece of Pluto and thus a touch of Fire.
That way they can assign it to XX Judgement and
through the strange alchemy of book publishing...
we have Fire, though still in the wrong place since
Fire is the attribute of XXI The World. It's simple!

wizzle

Astrologers very properly recognized the "new" planets and assigned them to signs and houses where they fit quite nicely. If this messed up tarot or kaballah systems, well, ho hum.

As above, so below as the saying goes. Not "as my system so the planets."

Fulgour

I'm glad you're happy with Kabbalah.
I don't use it or like it or want it...

PS: I enjoyed my visit to your website!