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Legend: Ten of Swords, Camlann

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo62
Looking at this card again, I've noticed for the first time that there are two bodies, one draped over the other. Presumably these are Arthur and Mordred, who have done a "Darwin awards" and killed each other, wiping out their line.
The dog - my first impression was that he was about to take a bite out of the dead bodies (yuk); but I've also just noticed that there is another dog behind the first one, snarling at him.
Try as I might Leo, I cannot see more than one dog or see one dead body on top of the other. I do see another dead man in the middle distance behind Arthur, wearing a yellow cloak, chainmail and a spear in this chest. But it wouldn't be the first time that I haven't seen all the things that are in these cards, that does seem to be a problem for me with this deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo62
To me, this card speaks to the utter futility of war. I have to say, I don't find anything redeeming about it. I agree, it's a lot more realistic than the RWS 10 of Swords; this card captures the real, fierce chaos of battle and shows (to some extent) the truth of its consequences.
The snarling dogs say to me that all restraint on aggressive instincts has been lost and when people descend to this level of bloodlust the consequences are always death and destruction. It reminds me of the famous Yeats poem:

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

Sorry to put such a downer on things..
No matter how many dogs there are, and whether or not they are snarling, I do agree with you about the "utter futility of war", and thank you for quoting the Yeats poem too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jujubee
At the same time - this is not the end of a war but a battle. So there is still a war and fighting going on around Arthur (or Mordred? - ugh my knowledge has left me here!)
Mordred and Arthur were related and Mordred ruled for the King while he was off fighting Lancelot on the continent. Mordred decided he wanted to make this a permanent arrangement and, when Arthur returned, this battle of Camlann was the result. Mordred dealt Arthur a fatal blow, then Arthur killed Mordred before he died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jujubee
Also - as a minor card - whatever painful stressful event you are going through now is minor and not a life-changing event.
Oh, you have quite a different take on the Minor Arcana than I do Jujubee, that's interesting! I see the Majors as the Why cards, the Minors as the What and How cards, with the Courts being the Who. For me, any of the Minors could indeed be life-changing, and they often have been.

I see the Minors as the manifestation of the underlying causes shown in the Majors, cosmic influences which have descended into the field of time and space. For example, I recently drew a Three of Swords Reversed just before a week away at Wisdom School, and sure enough, there was a great release of pain as the swords dropped out of my heart, "allowing old wounds to begin to heal, particularly by removing binding intellectual concepts so that the heart could beat freely" (Spirit Guide Group: Draws Volume Two, Post #21 - but I realize you are not yet a subscriber). For me, yes, very life changing.
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I did look again and sure enough, there is a body draped across the fallen man, he looks like a lump and if seen from another perspective would form an X. He's wearing a white surcoat with a gold emblem and gold belt over his chain mail and has blonde hair in a ponytail.

What sort of looks like another dog, is a darker brown bearish looking thing just to the left of the one we can't determine if it's snarling or protecting. I've got to get out my card and really look at it again... with a magnifier.

One thing for certain, he's got a death grip on that sword. But Arthur would not have been dead yet... at this time, recieved a mortal wound but still alive enough to be drawn away and order Bedivere to throw Excaliber into the lake. So perhaps this is Bedivere throwing himself across Arthur in grief and despair and to put himself between his King and further danger.

Maybe that is why that dog is snarling... you aren't dead yet, get up! Or even... that anger when something you trust and rely on and love is threatened to be taken from you. "Who will take care of me!" "How could you be so careless?" "How dare you die on me!" All those irrational thoughts that go through our heads when confronted with sudden destructive loss or conflict. The fear that becomes fury, lashing out in destructive ways.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalesWoman
I did look again and sure enough, there is a body draped across the fallen man, he looks like a lump and if seen from another perspective would form an X. He's wearing a white surcoat with a gold emblem and gold belt over his chain mail and has blonde hair in a ponytail.
Well this time I saw the second man right away, his hair seems to be blonde and he's lying face down across Arthur. Before I thought it was Arthur's body that was twisted around in an awkward way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WalesWoman
What sort of looks like another dog, is a darker brown bearish looking thing just to the left of the one we can't determine if it's snarling or protecting. I've got to get out my card and really look at it again... with a magnifier.
Well, yes, that does look a bit like a dog, and I had seen that before. But the size, crude shape and position of this dog-thing is very odd, its larger than the recognizable dog, and floating above it somehow, yet it seems that it might be further away! It does add to the overall chaos and insanity of the scene though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WalesWoman
One thing for certain, he's got a death grip on that sword. But Arthur would not have been dead yet... at this time, recieved a mortal wound but still alive enough to be drawn away and order Bedivere to throw Excaliber into the lake. So perhaps this is Bedivere throwing himself across Arthur in grief and despair and to put himself between his King and further danger.
Hmm, I don't think Bedivere's doing a good job of protection if that's the case, and Bedivere's hair in the Knight of Spears is brown, not blonde. However, if you look at the King of Swords, Mordred, you will see that he is blonde and that he has the same eagle crest on his throne as the fallen man has on the back of his tunic! So I think Leo's original theory was correct, and Mordred is piled on top of Arthur.

Yes, you are right of course about Arthur, he really can't be dead quite yet. And of course Arthur's journey across the lake in The Judgement implies that death itself is yet another illusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WalesWoman
Maybe that is why that dog is snarling... you aren't dead yet, get up! Or even... that anger when something you trust and rely on and love is threatened to be taken from you. "Who will take care of me!" "How could you be so careless?" "How dare you die on me!" All those irrational thoughts that go through our heads when confronted with sudden destructive loss or conflict. The fear that becomes fury, lashing out in destructive ways.
Yes, I can identify with this line of thought - well put, WalesWoman!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie-David
Oh, you have quite a different take on the Minor Arcana than I do Jujubee, that's interesting! I see the Majors as the Why cards, the Minors as the What and How cards, with the Courts being the Who. For me, any of the Minors could indeed be life-changing, and they often have been.
Wow - I like your take on this also. I always see minor as not actually "minor" as in it's not worth worrying about but a situation that can be fixed. For example- if a death occurred in my family - I'd give that a major card - or if a divorce occurs, etc. But if I get a bad grade in a class I am taking - yes it CAN affect my overall gpa and yes it can influence my chances of getting into a better program in the future BUT it is not a major event that cannot be controlled as the above. (Divorce is questionable I know but it's definitely in a major category since this is someone you expect to spend your life with and it fails). Of course I also believe that each person sees a major event differently! what is minor to ME can be very significant to someone else and vice versa. So it's sort of left up to the person asking the questions. A ten of swords can indeed be painful - the 8 of swords pain of feeling betrayed is indeed VERY intense. But since I don't read reversals- the only time I would see a minor card as a major event is if a major card opened next to it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jujubee
Wow - I like your take on this also. I always see minor as not actually "minor" as in it's not worth worrying about but a situation that can be fixed. For example- if a death occurred in my family - I'd give that a major card - or if a divorce occurs, etc. But if I get a bad grade in a class I am taking - yes it CAN affect my overall gpa and yes it can influence my chances of getting into a better program in the future BUT it is not a major event that cannot be controlled as the above. (Divorce is questionable I know but it's definitely in a major category since this is someone you expect to spend your life with and it fails). Of course I also believe that each person sees a major event differently! what is minor to ME can be very significant to someone else and vice versa. So it's sort of left up to the person asking the questions. A ten of swords can indeed be painful - the 8 of swords pain of feeling betrayed is indeed VERY intense. But since I don't read reversals- the only time I would see a minor card as a major event is if a major card opened next to it.
I think the Tarot will work within each person's understanding and interpretation, so its one of those things where what's right is what works. But you must also find, I would think, that many of your Major draws are not all that life changing, and also - and more importantly - that Majors do not always imply inevitability: that they indicate a future potential which you may be able to adapt, reduce, change or counter.
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That's true - a major popping out isn't always a "major" event. I also follow my instincts and base it on the question. If I ask something like "Should I cook today or order out" and a major pops out - it really is based on context. It's sort of a give and take situation for me. I believe the cards eventually recognize how YOU interpret and read them and so they pop out based on how you see the reading. I bet if you and I both did readings for the exact same question and person we would get different cards but come up with the same conclusions! Wouldn't that be interesting?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jujubee
That's true - a major popping out isn't always a "major" event. I also follow my instincts and base it on the question. If I ask something like "Should I cook today or order out" and a major pops out - it really is based on context. It's sort of a give and take situation for me. I believe the cards eventually recognize how YOU interpret and read them and so they pop out based on how you see the reading.
Yes, I quite agree - they become your cards!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jujubee
I bet if you and I both did readings for the exact same question and person we would get different cards but come up with the same conclusions! Wouldn't that be interesting?
Yes, I have seen that happen in some threads where an open question is asked. The last one I remember was in Subscriber Chat, where people were concerned for the safety of two of our members who were affected by Hurricane Katrina. Most people did agree that the two were safe, but by using various different methods, some of them Tarot.

Deep Blessings - David
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