Has anyone done Kris Hadar's course?

[Moonbow]

Originally Posted by mythos

So ... for a while, before I make a complete dickhead of myself again, I'll read posts, nut my way through some of the French texts, compare my various TdM decks ... and hope for insight.


mythos/shirley

mythos.....

I love this. You've got it in a nutshell. I'm still working out my own way to read with Marseille decks and loving every step. My theory is... read everything, question everything.... then make up your own mind. I'm not an academic but I love to read the thoughts and investigations of others and I too am hoping that somewhere along the line it all clicks into place, and it's starting to. I read more than I write in these forums because I mostly don't have alot to add, but I'm learning a hell of a lot thanks to the generosity of those who write here.

As for Kris Hadar, I'm disappointed that I cannot get access to my courses (15 there for me now apparently!) But I haven't really missed them because as robert said, this is the best place (with it's links) to learn all you need to know. I remember being very impatient at not being able to read it all up in a book, but I then realised that TdM doesn't work like that because it IS the book.

Respect to all the posters here who have managed this thread in a civilised, friendly and helpful way.

love
Moonbow*

PS you're not a dickhead

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by Ninamagic

Venicebard:
It did help, thank you so much
It made sense because you compared it with Kabbalah, which I know a little about (i.e. very little though).
Still I'm not sure I understand the differences in Gnosticism, in fact I'm not sure I understand Gnosticism at all...

Gnosticism is an EXTREMELY complex subject, while Kabbalah is just the surviving FRAGMENTS of Qabbalah... that is, its core teachings were lost (though I have recovered some).

Ancient Gnostics varied from puritanical to hedonistic, from quasi-Judaic to anti-Judaic, and so on. While Judaic Gnosticism (Merkavah/Qabbalah) stops short of calling the ‘creator’ an upstart (either ignorant of subsidiary status, else downright evil), as other Gnostics do, all true Gnosticism agrees that (1) the material world is a snare, which means that man does well to reject sensation and accept the inner guidance we normally reject, (2) the key to salvation is not faith or obedience or piety (in and of itself), but gnosis, knowledge of man’s origin and ultimate destiny, and (3) the universe is anthropocentric.

This last, while rejected by modern science as the ‘geocentric’ view, is actually a sounder, more truly scientific viewpoint than its is, for my money. For the balance sought by the cosmos is not between ‘matter and antimatter’, but between outer and inner horizon: straight out or ahead—towards other—versus straight back or in—back towards self. And the only known doorway connecting the two is us (upright sentient beings). Even the outer center (sun) around which the rest of the planets revolve circles around us (the zodiac), and the entire stellar heavens revolves (every 26,000 yrs.) in a forward sense about the zodiac (via the mechanism of precession), the zodiac being what connects man with time (symbolically, meaning in the way that really counts): spring springs up towards aries the head, fall falls down towards libra the loins, and so on.

The Buddha was basically Gnostic (in the Dhammapadha, the Gnostic view of life given its most exhaustive exposition, though not generally recognized as such), though much of modern Buddhism—especially theravada—has degenerated into just another cult trying to sell the “enlightenment comes from rejection of the illusion of individual selfhood” line, which is pure bunk. (Am I being mean?)

Alchemy (and its far eastern equivalent, Taoism?) arises from the Gnostic realization that the world needs restoration (Heb. tikkun), that life needs transmutation (solve et coagula), that 'something is amiss' (the cosmos is not the way it is supposed to be). Big job, considering how few are engaged in the opus or Great Work at any given time...

(I'll shut up now... since I gotta go ta woik)

[mythos]

Originally Posted by Astraea

Mythos, I think that what you might be sensing is a pure spirit that seems to be behind the TdM in its many forms....

many of us are drawn to the members of the TdM "family tree" by a subjective sense that something unfathomably deep and true exists at their invisible core, and simultaneously a simplicity and warmth that is steady and welcoming as a candle in the window on a dark night.

In my own relationship with the TdM, I started by reading most of the historical threads on AT, bookmarking and visiting websites for information -- but what has really gripped me is the revelatory nature of the cards, themselves, as I interact with them in the simplest ways through handling, visual appreciation and observation of how each image makes me feel and what it seems to be saying from moment-to-moment; for I think that the cards speak the intimate language of each person's soul, and that is something the written word can address, but not capture.

So your intuition that THE answers exist is correct -- Books have been written about the TdM, yet it seems to me that the pathway to meaning -- THE meaning -- is found at least as much "in here" as "out there."

Some snipping:

That certainly does given me an explanation I why I feel so deeply drawn to the TdM. There is always going to be a major part of me that will be looking for THE books - researching knowledge - it's automatic, using my intuition isn't! It was, but I rejected it at one point (long and irrelevant story attached to that), and I am only now tentatively finding my way back.

Thank you ... a further indication that it is time to move further ahead on that particular journey ... via the TdM, it seems

Originally Posted by venicebard

Now I’m impressed. I have—from my sheer passion for the extremely interesting and pertinent details he has dredge up for the consideration of us moderns who can only contemplate the flotsam of ancient secrets and extrapolate—managed to get through two but am stuck in the third-and-last works of his dealing with alchemy. That was where I found, for example, the geodetically important myth of the unicorn (I believe it was) that stopped up the Jordan, and about the Jordan ‘backing up’ (flowing upstream): this legend is of an importance even Jung probably did not sense... (but that’s another story)

Peace, brother-or-sister (love your signature)

)

Starting with the alchemy texts is like starting a rollicking tale which has many twists and turns, half-way through. I discovered that by beginning Jung with the Alchemy vols. I did have a basic background from psych studies, and hearing about his theories at the breakfast table when I was a kid, but even so, it was a mistake.

Then I began with his earliest works, and worked my way through ... it became an unfolding story in which he worked, and reworked ideas, in which there were reflected his own on-going studies, a realisation that if he was writing today he would be constantly revising, and probably changing much of what he wrote. I was reading him more like a novel ... waiting to see what happened next. Mind you ... when I go back and re-read sections, as I do every so often, I realise not only how little I understood first time around, but how many times I may have to re-read whole volumes.

While much of his work is showing it's 'time', there is that core that speaks ... but yes, it is not an easy task. My 'challenge bitch' within sets me these tasks, and, although I know that I could tell her to take a hike, I am seduced everytime. . Hence my TdM journey.

Originally Posted by Kissa

1) Kris Hadar's course: drop it. Plus i am french, i hate reading french with mistakes and unfortunately they were many many mistakes in there.

2) Want to get a brilliant book about TdM? Get Jodorowsky's La Voie du Tarot. ... This book is not just about Tarot, it's about philosophy, history, culture, humanism. It's really deep and fascinating. It's supposed to be written for the Jodo-Camoin deck but i used it with Rodes-Sanchez (close enough) and it went fine. I can only regret it isn't available in english, i am sure an english version of this book would have the TdM market explode in the US (and UK).

3) A very good book, probably easier to read than Jodo's : C. Sédillot "Ombres et Lumières du Tarot". A study, card by card (minors too!) of the symbols included. Sédillot isolates the symbols on the left of the page and explains them on the right. Very clever, very efficient.

I think you get get an excellent class, with real teachers, here on AT in the former hysterical forum,as Diana used to call it (instead of historical). I sometimes don't get the point of arguing about historical details and who was first and who is right but it is just me.

Hope this helps,

blessings

Kissa

Thanks Kissa,

I've been reading the English version of the KH .... which also has many mistakes. Normally that would drive me crackers, but because it was a translation, I was able to assume that the errors were merely translation ones.

I just ignored his 'You MUSTS' .... and his fortune-telling approach.

Thanks for the book recommendations. I haven't the Jodo-Camoin yet, on the 'want' list. But I do have the Deluxe Rodes-Sanchez. Superb! I'm particularly interested in a book with discussion of the minors. I'm still finding it difficult, in many of the TdM decks to tell which way is 'up' with many of the minors.

I'm ambivalent about the historical discussion ... it both utterly fascinates me, yet I feel that I am often becoming side tracked from the actual cards. Working on the theory that I only have 20-30 'seeing' years left .... I am finding it necessary to place limits on my study adventures. Most frustrating!

Originally Posted by Moonbow*

mythos.....

I love this. You've got it in a nutshell. I'm still working out my own way to read with Marseille decks and loving every step. My theory is... read everything, question everything.... then make up your own mind.
Respect to all the posters here who have managed this thread in a civilised, friendly and helpful way.

love
Moonbow*

PS you're not a dickhead

Sometimes someone needs to hit me over the head to remind me of this exact approach. I do seem to go about everything the hard way.

Originally Posted by venicebard

Gnosticism is an EXTREMELY complex subject

The Buddha was basically Gnostic (in the Dhammapadha, the Gnostic view of life given its most exhaustive exposition, though not generally recognized as such

Yep ... I skirt around Gnosticism, delving in here and there. I hadn't seen the Gnostic link with Buddha until you mentioned it ... a light bulb flashes ..... my thanks!

mythos

[Sophie]

Mythos,

If you can read Jodo's book, it really is wonderful. He doesn't get sidetracked with all sorts of esoteric associations, though he is obviously very spiritually aware, and also, draws from various spiritual traditions as he sees fit. His main view is - tarot de Marseille is tarot de Marseille, not kabbala, tree of life, or any other system. It is a genuine, stand-alone esoteric tradition. And it is free for all to explore. His own exploration is magnificent - of Majors, Minors, and card pairs. He built a wonderful mandala, too. Jodo's background, by the way, was RWS, before he discovered the Marseille (he is Chilian, and writes in Spanish, but the book was written with a French author, who translated it). The fact that Jodo is not only a tarotist but an artist and author of many other works is a plus, in my view (that is also what I appreciate in Rachel Pollack, btw - it gives them both greater depth in their tarot exploration, no matter how different they are from each other).

So I side with Kissa in recommending him wholeheartedly - as I do the Rhodes-Sanchez, which is not only lovely, but also based (as I have found out) on more than the usual Conver reproduction. These guys did some serious research.

Now for other avenues. You want to know more about the minors. Firstly, most tarotists in the Marseille tradition don't read reversed - Hadar is singular in that. Many don't even read Minors! But there is a deck that might help you if you want to read reversals: the Fournier puts little numbers at the bottom of cards, which shows which way is up. It also has colour background which can be used to determine elemental dignities.

If you read French, Carole Sédillot (whom Kissa already mentioned) is good and easy to read. You might also want to explore a very original tarotist and artist called Alain Bocher. He wrote several Cahiers du Tarot, in which he uses the Héron Conver photoreproduction as a base for a meditation/study of the cards - I own number 1 & 2, which are really interesting, though eccentric. His main point is that the Tarot de Marseille was an instrument used by card-makers & journeymen (inheritors of the cathedral builders) to recreate in game form the Temple of Jerusalem - that is, it is a spiritual construct (so instead of comparing the growing connection with the Divine to a journey or a path, it is "built" according to a spiritual blueprint or architect's plan). It's a fascinating view - one that comes from the Middle Ages, btw. And the guy is not dogmatic at all. He also points out the "language of birds" we might see or hear in the TdM - that is, the wordplay inherent in the language, including the titles of the cards. Alain Bocher, btw, is the artist who made the gorgeous Tarot de La Réa, a modern tarot based on the TdM, and one of the most original around. The Cahiers du Tarot are OOP, but turn up on ebay and Amazon France.

Astraea is absolutely right. Your own blueprint you will draw and refine yourself, in the hours you spend with the cards.

[mythos]

Originally Posted by Helvetica

Mythos,

If you can read Jodo's book, it really is wonderful. ... His main view is - tarot de Marseille is tarot de Marseille, not kabbala, tree of life, or any other system. It is a genuine, stand-alone esoteric tradition. And it is free for all to explore.

Ahhhh! This view fits so exactly my intuitive belief .... wonderful!

Originally Posted by Helvetica

Mythos,

The fact that Jodo is not only a tarotist but an artist and author of many other works is a plus, in my view (that is also what I appreciate in Rachel Pollack, btw - it gives them both greater depth in their tarot exploration, no matter how different they are from each other).

So I side with Kissa in recommending him wholeheartedly - as I do the Rhodes-Sanchez, which is not only lovely, but also based (as I have found out) on more than the usual Conver reproduction. These guys did some serious research.

I feel the same about Pollack's work ... I think that it is essential to be widely experienced. It is far too easy to get 'caught' in one's little world ... be it tarot ... of social work/psychotherapist, which I was, and begin to believe that your tiny and unique group is representative of 'all' people. The way to avoid that perception is to explore the whole world ... either figuratively or actually.

Originally Posted by Helvetica

Mythos,

But there is a deck that might help you if you want to read reversals: the Fournier puts little numbers at the bottom of cards, which shows which way is up. It also has colour background which can be used to determine elemental dignities.

Mythos smacks herself over the head! I have this deck ... I never noticed ...

Originally Posted by Helvetica

If you read French, Carole Sédillot (whom Kissa already mentioned) is good and easy to read. You might also want to explore a very original tarotist and artist called Alain Bocher. He wrote several Cahiers du Tarot, in which he uses the Héron Conver photoreproduction as a base for a meditation/study of the cards - I own number 1 & 2, which are really interesting, though eccentric. His main point is that the Tarot de Marseille was an instrument used by card-makers & journeymen (inheritors of the cathedral builders) to recreate in game form the Temple of Jerusalem - that is, it is a spiritual construct (so instead of comparing the growing connection with the Divine to a journey or a path, it is "built" according to a spiritual blueprint or architect's plan). It's a fascinating view - one that comes from the Middle Ages, btw.

Astraea is absolutely right. Your own blueprint you will draw and refine yourself, in the hours you spend with the cards.

I know the name Alain Boucher ... but I can't place it .... I read far too quickly, and far too much to retain anything in a well-organised memory-bank.

I'll follow this up. It is a fascinating view and one that has an internal logic and consistency given the zeitgeist of the Middle Ages (maybe LOL). I've read reasonably deeply in history/literature/life in the Middle Ages, and earlier. It, and the opening up during the Renaissance, have been an interest for many years now.

I was fortunate in my second major: Philosophical and Historical Studies, to do a wonderful course called Theories of the Universe, another in Technology and Society from the Ancient Greeks forward, and Philosophy of Science.

I had the exquisite pleasure of presenting a seminar and writing a paper on the wedding of scholasticism and Aristotelian philosophy in that very era. I became a study junkie of the period as a result.

What I have gained most from all this discussion, is the confidence to explore the TdM from a variety of perspectives, listen, read, intuit, but ultimately make my own decisions ... with and open-endedness to enable the free flow in and outward of the new!

Thanks all,
mythos

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by Helvetica

[Jodo’s] main view is - tarot de Marseille is tarot de Marseille, not kabbala, tree of life, or any other system. It is a genuine, stand-alone esoteric tradition.

It may surprise you to learn this is essentially my view as well, at least it stands alone from all previously explored avenues of connexion (to letters, Kabbalah, etc), which should therefore be set aside in order to penetrate its depths. And I laud those who reject the current fads thereconcerning.

So I side with Kissa in recommending him wholeheartedly - as I do the Rhodes-Sanchez, which is not only lovely, but also based (as I have found out) on more than the usual Conver reproduction. These guys did some serious research.

You have piqued my interest: this is a deck, I take it? I shall seek it out (if any wish to point me to it and save me the search, feel free, as my Googling failed to turn it up... forgive my ignorance).

[Alain Bocher’s] main point is that the Tarot de Marseille was an instrument used by card-makers & journeymen (inheritors of the cathedral builders) to recreate in game form the Temple of Jerusalem - that is, it is a spiritual construct (so instead of comparing the growing connection with the Divine to a journey or a path, it is "built" according to a spiritual blueprint or architect's plan). It's a fascinating view - one that comes from the Middle Ages, btw.

Yes! built (according to plan). I wish I were more fluent in French so I could read this guy (I may try one of these days anyway, French being the one language I don’t have to look up every other word in). I am drawn to any who see in TdM a medieval, rather than Renaissance, artifact (which it of course is, in my view). Not sure exactly how card-makers manage to be the ‘inheritors of the cathedral builders’, but I do not discount this possibility at all, considering Masonic overtones seemingly present in TdM.

[Nina*]

Tarot de Marsella (Rhodes-Sanchez):

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/marsella/


Nina

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by Ninamagic

Tarot de Marsella (Rhodes-Sanchez):

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/marsella/


Nina

They're beautiful! I want them. (But when I clicked on Tarot Garden to order them, it couldn't retrieve that URL... I'll try again tomorrow.)

[Nina*]

Venicebard: I can't make it work either but I bought mine directly from their own web-site http://www.tarotmarsella.com/
It's in Spanish though... but there is a thread here somewhere on how to place an order if you want to

[Sophie]

Originally Posted by venicebard

They're beautiful! I want them.

They are very attractive. There is also a large size "deluxe" edition of Majors only - rather bling-bling, but lovely. Great to have some large cards to study!

Mind you, I don't agree with all their conclusions - in their attempt at reconstituting the lines, I think they made some mistakes - but they did cast their net very wide, and came up with some inspired choices. It's a personal vision of TdM, but one I find suits me on the whole, because it is eclectic (that is, it draws from the whole tradition, though the debt to Conver is of course very wide).

As for the cardmakers-cathedral builders connection, from my readings it seems to have happened through the imagiers (the stone-cutters & painters) - in that the corporations of stone-cutters & painters eventually evolved and somewhere along the line the printers and cardmakers grew out of them (not quite sure how - I need to do some more studying) - building on the ancient traditions & spiritual teachings (remember that the corporations were spiritual entities, not just professional bodies - and in some cases, very politically religious - e.g. linked to the Templars: that was the case of many Cathedral builders). You might be interested to know that after the fall of the Templars, many imagiers took the road of exile - some for the East, and some for Italy & Spain.

It is clear from the images of the TdM that many of them look like those on the Cathedrals & in religious paintings and illustrations (for the latter, Ross Caldwell & Kenji on this forum has done some valuable research). That means that even if the TdM is a Renaissance or Early Modern artefact, its roots - in imagery and in spirituality - are far older (actually, this goes for many things. Historians have only recognised in the past 20 years how much modern Europe still owes the Middle Ages; and how the so-called Renaissance was more a continuity than a break. In fact, the real break came much later, with the Scientific Revolution, which radically changed the world view). There are some fascinating studies of the medieval corporations and how they evolved up to the Revolution - some in English, btw. I have a very strong feeling the TdM is a product of that culture, but it's still very hazy. Personally, I find the notion of the "inner spiritual cathedral" projected onto the TdM fascinating. But then, the cathedrals are fascinating!