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Lady Iron Side 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f. silvestris View Post
Every now and then, there is some intelligent discussion of the Minchiate here, but it always seems to peter out, presumably because these cards are so far out of the mainstream: this seems a pity, as the Minchiate Etruria, at least, is a deeply wonderful deck. (Sadly for me, full deckís excellent Minchiate study group came and went before I acquired my copy.)

Iím posting a non-systematic, not altogether serious, list of things which have bothered, puzzled or amused me about the Minchiate Etruria over the last 6 months, avoiding the obvious differences from the familiar tarot pattern, in the hope that some of you might have specific information about one or two of them, and that others might be drawn to investigate these cards for themselves.

TRUMPS

I have a lurking suspicion that the Grand Duke and the Eastern Emperor are hermaphrodites: their heads seem to belong on each otherís bodies.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...minchherms.jpg

What is the creature on the Air card? Itís obviously nourishing itself by drawing in breath.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...s/minchair.jpg

Libra shows the hedgehog and the fox (well, the wolf and the porcupine ... ) along with the scales.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...s/minchlib.jpg

There are ducks (seagulls?) bobbing around on the water on the Pisces and Scorpio cards Ė just to show that it IS water? Ė and why is Scorpio rising above the water, does this have some astrological significance?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...minchducks.jpg

Thereís a tortoise on Capricorn: or perhaps a turtle, because theyíre both amphibians? And what is the significance of Capricornís crescent moon tipped staff (it looks as if itís wandered in from the Thoth)?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58.../minchcapr.jpg

Thereís also a splendid wild pig on the Sagittarius card.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...s/minchsag.jpg

And the Aquarius card is my favourite.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/invbks/minchaq.jpg

WANDS.

2. Naked man with a palm branch (?) and ribbon/banner. Plus a wolf/fox and a crane like bird on either side of a lamp Ė does this illustrate a fable or motto?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...minchwands.jpg

CUPS.

4. Ape with a mirror.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...s/minchups.jpg

SWORDS

3. Romulus and Remus. There, I have identified the single most obvious card in the deck.

4. A bear (?) on a stool, apparently reading the paper. And a unicorn.

5. Chickens with a fox/wolf in a strange architectural box (when I first saw the card I thought it was meant to be a courtroom scene, with the fox in the dock). Is some fable or motto invoked here?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...s/minchsw1.jpg

6. A glitter ball and a kitty. Have I mentioned that I really, really love this deck?

8. A monkeyish creature with satyrís legs, looking either straight through a hoop or into a handleless mirror. Also a hedgehog and a mole staring at each other.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...s/minchsw2.jpg

COINS
A. Two figures at an altar with smoke coiling up. One has a headdress, the other billowing robes.

4. An elephant. Why? Was there an elephant craze in the early 18th century?

9: Birds. All the others show heads.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58...minchcoins.jpg

Apologies in advance if some or all of these have been covered elsewhere in Aeclectic: put it down to my ineptness with the search feature. Felis
I have also noticed some other creatures/beasts that I would like to know more about

King of Coins ( what creature does his hand rest upon)
II Grand duke/Empress ( he/she rest hand on a weird pet, what creature is this? )
III Western Emperor ( some as above what is that creature ? Half bird half lion?

IMO the Knight of cups represents Prudence to some degree, the lions feet sorta throws off this theory a bit.

I am very curious as to the suit of coins, for on every card there are different faces of people of both genders, to me they look like kings, queen, emperors, ie: Caesar, Alexander the great, etc. would anyone know who some of this faces are?

I did find some others thread discussing a few of these cards, I do wish there was more discussion of them. I would really appreciate it.

here are the threads I have found so far
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=149852
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...ight=Minchiate
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Lady Iron Side 
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the Minchiate Tarot - 8 of swords


I get the impression that the 8 of swords reminds me of the story " Lion the witch and the wardrobe" Lucy. but I am not very good at history stories so I am not sure if this story was around in the 1800's. What gave me the impression is the half man goat holding the ring. would anyone know what the mythological name is of this creature I so forget.
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Lady Iron Side 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Iron Side View Post
I get the impression that the 8 of swords reminds me of the story " Lion the witch and the wardrobe" Lucy. but I am not very good at history stories so I am not sure if this story was around in the 1800's. What gave me the impression is the half man goat holding the ring. would anyone know what the mythological name is of this creature I so forget.
Well I have been thinking that maybe this is PAN
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Huck 
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I don't know, if you realized it, but your links don't work, at least not for me.

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05115/d05115.htm

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05114/d05114.htm

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05113/d05113.htm

Here are Minchiate decks.

Added: I found a 4th deck:

http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks05/d02057/d02057.htm
the dating "c. 1700" is possibly too insecure



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Debra 
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Huck, your second link works, but not the first or the last.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra View Post
Huck, your second link works, but not the first or the last.
... :-) ... seems to be the thread of the not working links ... Thanks, now they work.



Florence awakes to life in the morning ... :-)



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Lady Iron Side 
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Thanks Huck for those links, very informative, my nice Minchiate journal will get filled up soon, please keep posting any historical information about this deck. I am so intrigued and fascinated by the history of it. Eagerly learning here and enjoying it. greedy me wants more info.

Huck is there any connection between this deck and the Etteilla?

Last edited by Lady Iron Side; 16-11-2011 at 06:04.
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Huck 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Iron Side View Post
Huck is there any connection between this deck and the Etteilla?
No, I don't think so. The Etteilla uses the 7 days of the bible creation of the world. The Minchiate has 4 elements. The Etteilla has 22 special cards, the Minchiate 41.

The name Minchiate appeared first in 1466 in a letter from the poet Luigi Pulci to the young Lorenzo de Medici. It's not known, how many cards it had then. The number of the cards was confirmed by a sex poem in 1552. Most cards were then presented as prostitutes. As first cards are considered (mostly) those of 1725, which is between the 3 decks, that I've linked.
At that time grand duchy of Florence was ruled by this man, Gian Gastone:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Ga...uke_of_Tuscany

Maybe he ordered the production, or possibly his sister ...



... or his female governor:



All this doesn't matter so much, as Gian Gastone was mostly drunk. Or he had just a conference with one of his male lovers.

... :-) ...anyway, it was near to the end of the Medici rule in Tuscany.



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Lady Iron Side 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
No, I don't think so. The Etteilla uses the 7 days of the bible creation of the world. The Minchiate has 4 elements. The Etteilla has 22 special cards, the Minchiate 41.
the reason why I asked is that I noticed that some of the cards were simuliar. I posted this thread please take a look.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=167427

Let me know if link is broken.

I find these dates interesting, this is just for ponder

(deck "Carte di Etruria" (Italy), c.1725 (AKA "Antiche Minchiate Etruria")
1789 Publication of the first Etteilla deck
and "Minchiate Fiorentine", c.1790 (AKA "Minchiate Fiorentine Al Leone")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck View Post
The name Minchiate appeared first in 1466 in a letter from the poet Luigi Pulci to the young Lorenzo de Medici. It's not known, how many cards it had then.

The number of the cards was confirmed by a sex poem in 1552. Most cards were then presented as prostitutes.

As first cards are considered (mostly) those of 1725, which is between the 3 decks, that I've linked.
At that time grand duchy of Florence was ruled by this man, Gian Gastone:

Maybe he ordered the production, or possibly his sister ...

... or his female governor:

All this doesn't matter so much, as Gian Gastone was mostly drunk. Or he had just a conference with one of his male lovers.

... :-) ...anyway, it was near to the end of the Medici rule in Tuscany.
Question, during this time, do you think then that these cards may pertain to certain battles/High status people of the time in Tuscany/Florence? and Why the Zodiac and Element Signs being included (purpose) ?

I found this which had some info http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=255&lng=eng

Last edited by Lady Iron Side; 17-11-2011 at 06:06.
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Lady Iron Side 
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deck "Carte di Etruria" (Italy), c.1725 (AKA "Antiche Minchiate Etruria")

Etruria is the latin name of the region Toscana.
The five strongest Triumphs, from 36 to 40, Star Moon Sun World Trumpets, are not numbered, the players knew them by heart.
The Triumphs 1 and 19 are more complete.

--------------------------------------------
"Minchiate Fiorentine", c.1790 (AKA "Minchiate Fiorentine Al Leone")

They were used in card games in Florence, Italy.

Is this the game that was used in the 3rd deck "Il Meneghello" (Italy) deck "Minchiate Fiorentine", 1986 ?

--------------------------------------------
In the strongest triumph,
The Trumpets, it is painted a view of the city of Bologna with the towers.

In the triumph
XXVII there is a stamp, repeated twice, FUORI PER LE CASE (out for the houses).

What Does This Mean ?

--------------------------------------------
"Il Meneghello" (Italy),
deck "Minchiate Fiorentine", 1986

In the Ace Coins there is a stamp obligatory for the decks by a law of 1862.

What was the Law ?

--------------------------------------------
The Triumph 2 or Pope 2, The Empress, becomes a masculine picture, The Empress or The
Grand Duke, but it is called always 2 or Pope 2.

Is this meant to be the Pope card ( V - Pope in a 78 card deck) ?

--------------------------------------------
The strongest triumphs, XXXIII and following, have a red background.
See the rule in german, Dresden 1798, http://www.tarock.info/Minchiatta.htm and in italian, in
the note 940 in a book of the poet burlesque Perlone Zipoli (anagram of Lorenzo Lippi, 1606-1664)
with notes of his friend Puccio Lamoni (anagram of Paolo Minucci),
http://www.librimania.it/capitolo.as...&capitolo=note (Link broken)

Was this the standard card play rules for all decks? if not please explain?

I also found this: http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=257

and

http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=179

-------------------------------------------
In the Ace of Coins there is a coat of arms of Florence, the red florentine iris colorless. The name
Firenze comes from latin Florentia, from flos-floris, it means flower. In the Middle Ages the symbol
was the white iris. At 1250 there was war between the Black Guelphs, winners, against the White
Guelphs with the Ghibellines. These took the white iris with red background. Then the Black
Guelphs changed the colours of Florence to the red iris with white background. The iris has many
variants, iris florentina white veined blue, iris pale blue violet, iris germanica dark violet. The
soccer, football team players of Florence have the violet shirts, violet is the colour of the supporters.
The strongest Triumph, Trumpets, has not the coat of Medici Family extinct in 1737 but the iris
and a latin written FAMA VOLAT, The Fame flies.

Do the pervious decks have simulair meanings if so what are they?

Last edited by Lady Iron Side; 17-11-2011 at 06:34.
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