King/Roy of Batons - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

[jmd]

One of the first details that one notices in this highly literate world is the subtle difference in the very titling of this card between the two publishers:

Dodal: Roy de Bastons vs Conver: Roy de Baton

This may not be of great significance. The middle 's' in the Dodal 'Bastons' is simply, by the way, a softening of the sound, that later was replaced by a circumflex accent upon the 'a' (not normally shown on upper case letters, so not shown on the Conver).

The end 's' shows that on the Dodal the suit is talked about in the plural, whereas in the Conver in the singular.

But let us look at the images (loaded, for convenience, on the ATS site).

<-- Dodal | Conver -->

Both cards have much in common: they each look somewhat towards the viewer's right; they both hold their Baton with their left hand, they are both similarly 'crowned', and their legs are in equivalent orientations - interestingly, each king seems to 'avoid' stepping onto the section of matting (or hole?) between his feet and throne (though on the Conver the line appears to perhaps be a shading horizontal, rather than the end of the 'carpet'.

Some of the distinctions are that the lower portion of the Baton points to below the King's left raised heel in the Dodal, whereas it points to just above his heel (also raised) in the Conver.

In the Dodal, the King's left arm (on the right-hand-side of the card) is confused: what is he doing? is the artwork deficient? is he sitting on it? On the Conver, this is 'resolved' by placing it simply on his thigh.

The backs of the thrones also show distinctions. In the Dodal, what is represented seems to be far more draped-like than the 'pillar'-form of the Conver (in fact, on the Dodal, it reminds one a little of what has at times been referred to as a 'solidified wing' by some).

The left-hand side of the chairs or thrones is a little confused in each representation, though 'clearly' he is sitting on some kind of cushioning blanket or doona-like softening padding.

In each case, he wears armour, and in each case, this is divided vertically down the centre of his chest. Both the Dodal and the Conver display a skirting and epaulette-type armour that seems relatively free to move or 'flow'.

What could be taken as a hair-matting (of perhaps metallic mesh?) on the Dodal is clearly simply flowing hair on the Conver. Similarly, the neck-ending of the armour on the Dodal seems to be more necklace-like on the Conver.

Finally, the Baton itself. Here a comparison to the other batons in each deck would also be useful. At this stage, however, let me simply note that it seems to be depicted, in each case, as a very crafted instrument, narrowing near its top, and virtually 'balled' near the bottom before its ending in a spear-like point.

So... essential characteristics, from these two, appear to be his peculiar sitting position, facing the viewer's right a little, holding his staff at an angle that may later be considered significant, armoured, and crowned above a 'floppy' hat.

[le pendu]

JMD,

Thanks for an excellent start to this discussion!

As usual, the Conver is much more elegantly drawn, and the Dodal has a naive charm to its lines.

It's very interesting to notice the "missing" hand on the Dodal, I do wonder if there should be one there.

The "chair" is also an issue with the Dodal, it's hard to say for sure what that is behind him!

I'll post a picture of the Jacques Vieville Tarot, as it might add some clues. I'll also add some images so we can trace these differences down to later decks.

best,
robert

[le pendu]

I'm going to add a few more images to the discussion. I hope not to take the discussion away from Dodal and Conver, but to show the influence of their patterns on other decks.

This is the King of Batons from the Tarocco di Marsiglia (Swiss), published by Il Meneghello



It clearly is based on the Conver pattern. You'll notice the top of the chair behind the king. His hand is on his lap. Lot's of details exist in this deck, like the heels of the kings shoes, and the seam on his stockings. This deck tends to be very ornate, with lots of little marks and triangles added.

Next I'd like to look at the King of Batons from the Tarocco di Besancon
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards28.htm



This deck has many of the same qualities as the Dodal deck. Being a "Besancon" or sometimes called a "Swiss" tarot, it has Juno and Jupiter instead of the Pope and Popess, but it is obvious that it is connected to the Dodal deck nevertheless.

Here, the hand is missing, and the chair is now a "wing".. or whatever it is! The hair is more detailed than on the Dodal, and the Baton is markedly different. Here it is much thicker. It looks as if some of the woodcut may be damaged, as it may have been more patterned with circles and diamonds, although I'm guessing they were to indicate a "wooden" club rather than decoration.

Also note that this King has heels on his shoes, and his feet are positioned simliarly to the Dodal. The seat and floor are very different than either Dodal or Conver, but a floor pattern was attempted.

Here is an Italian tarot from 1780 by Giacomo Zoni. You can purchase it as either Tarocco di Bologna by Il Meneghello, or as Ancient Tarots of Bologna by Lo Scarabeo.



Here the hand again hidden, like the Dodal. However, the back of the chair has been completely eliminated. Some of the details of the Conver and the Dodal have been completely redrawn, the armour is very different for instance.

What strikes me as interesting is that we have the Dodal in France, the Benois in Besancon, and the Zoni in Italy, all displaying the Dodal style pattern. We also have the Rochias/Proche In Switzerland matching the Conver style. I assume that both these patterns were fairly widespread.

Lastly, I'd like to add in the Jacques Vieville. It has the earliest date of any of the cards we have shown, 1650, in Paris. It is published byHeron. Here is a link with more information about the deck:
http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards61.htm



With the Vieville, we have an entirely new hand position. Here the hand is turned and leaning against the hip. Personally, I wonder if the Dodal pattern had the hand displayed like this early on and then lost it over time. Also, the chair is sort of wing-like, so I suppose there is a slight possibility that what we see in the Dodal pattern may be connected to this. With the Vieville, I almost get the sense that the King is *standing*. When I look at some of the other decks, I can almost sense the same thing.

best,
robert

[jmd]

The Vieville certainly often seems to shed light on details that are otherwise a little obscure in some of the later decks - as long as one remembers to (usually) inverse the image.

It is as if not only does the Vieville provide for some early pattern that appears to have influenced the Dodal (or is itself derived from a mutual ancestor), but that its images appear drawn directly on the woodblock, instead of reversed.... or is it the later ones that do this?

Another aspect that is important in the Vieville is its lack of title - something that should be obvious, in any case, from imagery, the title a superfluous addition.

The Vieville also shows clearly, like the Conver, that his hair is un-netted hair, so one may take the ambiguity of the Dodal as a 'poor' example of the detail.

[prudence]

Hi jmd, and le pendu,

thanks for this thread, and the images are great, huge and very clear. I just got my Besancon yesterday, so have almost all of the decks you are citing.

I have always wondered why the King has his baton held toward the ground, rather than upright.

The Vieville seems to be the one King with the most attitude in this group, with his hand on his hip like that. He does seem to be standing. I like him the most out of all of these examples. He seems to be the most alive, imo. Although I do love the gentle quality of the Bologna's King.

[le pendu]

Originally Posted by Astrid O

I just got my Besancon yesterday, so have almost all of the decks you are citing.

Hi Astrid O,
I hope you like the Besancon as much as I do. It has become one of my favorite decks. The Il Meneghello version is outstanding in it's reproduction and the quality of the paper it is printed on. It just feels fantastic to me.

I love comparing it to the Dodal and Conver. As I mentioned earlier, it seems very much related to the Dodal, as we'll further see as we continue to compare and contrast these early decks.

Originally Posted by Astrid O

I have always wondered why the King has his baton held toward the ground, rather than upright.

Me too. Was there such an instrument? It looks very much like a spear the way that it is held, and that point on the end looks very dangerous! I wonder if anyone knows of any reference to this type of "baton"?

Originally Posted by Astrid O

The Vieville seems to be the one King with the most attitude in this group, with his hand on his hip like that. He does seem to be standing. I like him the most out of all of these examples. He seems to be the most alive, imo. Although I do love the gentle quality of the Bologna's King.

The Vieville is such an interesting deck. Many times I look to it when trying to understand the details in TdM decks. There are "secrets" there I think. One major advantage that JMD refers to is the lack of titles, and the way that numbers seem to have been added to pre-existing images. Sometimes when looking at the Dodal and the Conver patterns, it seems that parts of the images have been lost as the titles and numbers *may have been* added on top of preexisting images, while maintaining the base art.

It's odd too in that it is a unique deck (as far as there is no similar deck that I know of that has been left to us), as it is not a "Belgian Tarot" (like the Vandenborre, with Bacchus and the Spanish Captain), but obviously they share a common ancester. I think that while we study the Dodal and the Conver, we will see the Vieville and other of these related decks add insights and further our appreciation of the world of early Tarot cards.

Thanks for joining in the discussion (and I hope others do as well!), please add any thoughts or questions that occur to you when looking at these posts. JMD and I have been discussing these issues for some time, so we may accidently come off sounding authoritive, really we are simply students hoping to share our individual thoughts and more importantly to learn from what everyone else contributes.

best,
robert

[prudence]

Thanks for the reply Robert! I do love the Besancon, the texture is amazing and soft. I am very pleased.

How rare is a Vieville? I may need to track one down, since you mention secrets, I would love to delve into some of them!

The other odd standout is the rough look of that baton. More like a branch, with a metal tip put on the end.

[Rosanne]

Good to have the comparisons with the cards. I have always thought that they were holding pens/quills- but then I would as I think there is a abcederium aspect to the Marseilles. ~Rosanne

[Jewel-ry]

This is an interesting discussion and I love the way you have put in the images. Its really good to be able to scroll down and see the differences in front of me.

I have never before noticed the 'confusing' left arm but it somehow fits with my image of this King as being a bit of a poser. I have often looked at his dress and pose and thought he could almost be sitting for an artist...having his portrait done.

His baton is crafted which is why, in many of these decks, I see his baton as a compass...complete with steel point.

Another point which interests me is his different hair...he seems to have flowing locks in all but the dodal in which his hair seems more 'styled'.

[le pendu]

Originally Posted by Astrid O

How rare is a Vieville? I may need to track one down, since you mention secrets, I would love to delve into some of them!

The Vieville is fairly easy to get ahold of, it's published by Heron and available through Tarot Garden and most other sources.

As far as secrets, well, that's just my opinion! As we explore more of the cards hopefully the discussions will lead everyone to their own opinion of its worth. Personally, I find it invaluable to my studies, I think it's delightful, and highly recommend it.

Originally Posted by Rosanne

I have always thought that they were holding pens/quills- but then I would as I think there is a abcederium aspect to the Marseilles.

That's such a great image! Would that make this the card for lawyers as well?? Hee hee.

Originally Posted by Jewel-ry

His baton is crafted which is why, in many of these decks, I see his baton as a compass...complete with steel point.

Another wonderful image! A king with a compass is a fantastic way of viewing this card.

Now I can imagine him drawing lines into the dirt, proclaiming who this or that plot of land shall belong to. Is this the king that sets boundries and guidelines?