King/Roy of Deniers - Contrasting the Dodal and Conver

Before comparing the Dodal and the Conver Deniers Kings, it may be worth noting that this Roy (King) differs from the Batons King in being represented with a beard - seemingly older in appearance as a consequence.

(As usual, the images are also presented adjacent each other on the ATS site.)




Unlike the King of Batons, these Kings have their legs crossed, and in both decks look to their left (the right of the card).

Also of similarity between the decks is the curvature of the 'throne', unlike, again, the Batons Kings.

A number of things are strikingly different between the King of Deniers between the Dodal and the Conver - apart from the name written as 'Denies' on the Dodal.

The first is that hat. The Dodal appears to have lines so mixed as to make one wonder what was the intended origin or image in the imagination of the artist. Also, it appears to be without crown - I say 'appears', for the Conver seems to have 'added' an implied crown by drawing pointy lines upon the hat itself, and the Dodal seems to have the shape of a crown on the ground near his foot.

I had at times wondered about this, and the Milanese Dotti deck certainly makes it directly recognisable - though whether taken from an earlier model or a reflection of Dotti needs to be further determined. Dotti:



This Dotti deck also renders the 'funny hat' of the Dodal a little more sensible - perhaps it is a remnant depiction of feathers in the hat of a Constantinoplean or other near-eastern ruler.

Both the Dodal and the Conver have the top of the Coin being used upon which to rest the King's right hand, whilst the left, as in most depictions, appears to rest on his lap. On the Dodal, one wonders whether it is holding some kind of strap.

The Conver has a ribbon-strap dangling over the viewer's closest throne-leg, something totally omitted from the Dodal.

You know this comment is a little left of centre, but the Dodal has on his lap what I have seen before in in pictures of kings. A sable skin complete with head and tail! To have a sable pelt in earlier times was considered very royal and worth a lot of coin. ~Rosanne

Excellent observation, Rosanne...

It is especially obvious as a skin on the Dodal, and explains much of the imagery - on that deck.

The Noblet, by comparison, does not at all have this, though it does have a crown incorporated within the hat, and that 'fish-tail' of a hat.

Though I am not at liberty to display the full card, I zoomed in on the portion of the Noblet to show that thereon it is not a pelt or skin, but the folds of a cloth. Still, due to the colourations, it does appear as though it could indicate, to the eyes of later observers, the pelt of an animal.

Noblet's King of Deniers zoomed in:


That other deck so closely related to the Dodal, the Payen (in this case the later Jean-Pierre Payen) shows that the 'crown' on the ground is more likely a turf of grass (as it clearly is on the Noblet). Dotti appears to have used the lines to indicate what may have been considered a missing crown.

Jean-Pierre Payen:

Here we have the same titling, though whatever he 'holds' in his hand is not so clearly what appears to be implied in the Dodal.

My thanks for this and also including Italian patterns...

...I've found enjoyment in seeing these all assembled here.

Overall, I hope to also see how the Dotti and Bolognese and Di Gumppenberg designs all vary like you are showing the Dodal and Conver.

Thank you for posting the page with the more complete comparisons.

Regards,

Cerulean

..but on thinking again jmd..maybe there is an element of the 'Fisher King' in this Roy? If I remember correctly there is a medieval association of the Fisher King with Joseph of Aramathea who wiped the body of Jesus with a draping cloth (across the knees). Maybe thats the fish tail beards and the oriental fish tail hat are remnants of that as well. The Fisher King legend became a Grail legend I think; but the Fisher King was about the time of the early crusades and based upon Near East pagan legend. (My server went down and so I have just posted this before I saw the enlargements- so yes you are right it is a cloth! )~Rosanne

Adding the Vieville and the Vandenborre:



As usual, these two images are very similar to each other. Neither has the "fish hat", which is interesting in that the Vieville is often very similar to the Dodal. Both of their hats have a crown on them.

Also of note is that the Vandenborre has lost the coin in the Kings lap, but has added one near the top of the card!

Both have the King sitting on a stool, rather than on a chair.

Adding the Ignaz Krebs (Paitnik) and the Jacque(s) Rochias/Jean Proche (Tarocco di Marsiglia, Swiss):



As usual, both of these decks are most similar to the Conver.

The Jean Proche has heels on the feet of the King.

Adding the J.B. Benois and the Giuseppe Drago:



As usual, both of these decks are most similar to the Dodal.

Interesting to me is that the Drago has two coins on the card, one on the lap, and one in about the same postion as the Vandenborre.

The chair in the Drago has a lot of detail. There is also some curves underneith the chair that I can't figure out.

The hat on the Benois is very striking, with what looks like sharp horns at the top of the hat!

Also, the Benois seems to indicate the King as inside, unlike most of the cards which seem to place him outside.

Well, now that I look back on it, the Payen and the Dodal hats have horns too.