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The Boiardo Tarocchi poem on its way out of some Italian dust

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Huck  Huck is offline
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The Boiardo Tarocchi poem on its way out of some Italian dust


Well .. at

http://tarotpedia.com -----> search-key "Boiardo"

happen exiting developments. The Tarocchi poem of Count Matteo Maria Boiardo awakes to some life in English language, after it had known in Italian long ago and somehow been rather overlooked by nearly everybody ... yes, a very curious Tarot and hardly of worth for anything. And as historical source to understand the origin of Tarot ... not important, much too curious a thing, leave it aside, nobody is interested. So - it seems - have thought 1000's of Tarot researchers all the time, researching for the orign of Tarot here and there, above, below, right and left, in front and behind: Where is the mystery?

Boiardo was overlooked - how else is it explainable, that a complete text - a short one, but with 262 lines poem not counting title etc. about "real playing card history", and that means it's one the longest between all this collected snippets of playing card history, here a few words, there a bill and here a prohibition, and perhaps occasionally 3 sentences together - stayed untranslated all the time.

And it was discussed in 1000,s of words various questions, for instance, what does this suits mean, existed card divination already in 15th century, was there something like Kabbala connected to all this Tarot stuff.

Boiardo was overlooked ...

Well, it's my prophetic day ... we've there somebody, who describes - in poetical form - what he understands with his suits ... and so should these suits be probably the best and most well known suits of 15th century ... as we've no better suit descriptions of others as far I know. So we get there a "real picture" of that, what really had been in a 15th century mind. Perhaps somebody understands that this not the answer ... no, this is the answer, at least it's the best available..
Then we've there ... as I already stated, it's my day of prophecy ... a really discussion object, if this deck was not a divination deck or - careful expressed - if the poem didn't intend to become a divination deck once. And we've the "kabbalistical aspects very nearby" .... we'll have to discuss the kabbalistical question, but now not as a dream and mere postulation from 19th century, but "as it really was" with names which are known and not hidden mysterious persons.
And this poem will have a good chance to be once accepted as the "second" oldest which had 22 cards ... well, it was at the beginning not a deck, at least there are signs, that this deck was not produced, but only stayed an "unfulfilled" Tarot project long years with a late "after the death of the author" production.

So I predict .. well, the world is full of divining Tarot readers, why shouldn't occasionally a humble Tarot historian divine a little, even when he reads only in other cards like the Boiardo deck, hm, I shouldn't take my mouth too full ... some new insights ... :-)
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The development from the discussions here and your own work on Trionfi's site is certainly becoming a likewise really wonderful completed resource added to taropedia.com (note the link error in your post, by the way)!

Great to see all these works coming together!
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The work that has been done on the poem so far is very interesting, to say the least. And it could, as you say, Huck, turn out to be an important milestone in tarot research.

That said, if I read the suits correctly:

Whips (fear)
Eyes (jealously)
Vases (Hope)
Arrows (Love)

Man, is that ever going to rock a few boats! Something to unite the Marseille and RWS camps, I suppose :-)

Along with quite a few others, I'll be keeping an eye for developments as they come to light.

Also ... I've been reading with much interest your mentions of the 5x14 theory. There, we have another interesting angle, and your reasoning seems solid.

A question: what are the possible effects of the 21 trumps of this poem on the 5x14 theory? Does the poem undermine the theory at all?
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Huck  Huck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dminoz
The work that has been done on the poem so far is very interesting, to say the least. And it could, as you say, Huck, turn out to be an important milestone in tarot research.

That said, if I read the suits correctly:

Whips (fear)
Eyes (jealously)
Vases (Hope)
Arrows (Love)

Man, is that ever going to rock a few boats! Something to unite the Marseille and RWS camps, I suppose :-)

Along with quite a few others, I'll be keeping an eye for developments as they come to light.

Also ... I've been reading with much interest your mentions of the 5x14 theory. There, we have another interesting angle, and your reasoning seems solid.

A question: what are the possible effects of the 21 trumps of this poem on the 5x14 theory? Does the poem undermine the theory at all?
Hi dminoz,
welcome at aeclectic and welcome in the history-forum.

Naturally the 5x14-theory (our work) doesn't contradict our researches to the Boiardo-poem. If there would have been contradictions and we would have noted them consciously, we naturally would have altered our theory.

The 5x14-theory started once with the observation of the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo deck only and registered first, that there were two artists, which painted the deck, one - likely Bembo - painted 68 pips (2 are missing) and courts and 14 trumps, the other 6 trumps.
Playing card history tried to explain this condition with "some cards were lost" and with "somebody replaced them", building on the whole the imagination, that the Tarot deck with 22 special cards was manifested as a "standard" ca. 1450.
Although there were single voices, which pointed to the possibility of "perhaps only 14 trumps first" (Ron Decker, John Berry), the great mass opinion, which became manifest with the works of Dummett and Kaplan, simply did overlook the fact of the "two artists" completely (this fact appears rather hidden in the Kaplan book, it's excusable, that it was not detected by everybody) and followed as usually the socalled expert's opinion, as if these experts were half-gods.
The 5x14-theory was developed in May 1989 by somebody, who wasn't neither expert in playing card research nor specialist for 15th century history. He got the Kaplan Encyclopedia I, became acquainted with the relevant facts and analysed various factors with the result, that for simple logical reasons it should be rather unlikely, that the story happened in the suggested way. It took about two weeks to reach this result.

He evaluated the probability for a complete 22-deck at this stage and time then as less than 1:100. About this he told to various experts, which neither understood really, what he was talking about or wished in any way to follow his argumentation.
He wrote a book to the theme, but found no publisher ... the publisher demanded for Tarot beginner books, cause they thought, that these sell well.

Naturally this all was not very inspiring, and he stopped fighting windmills.

Recently Internet has changed the general publication chances for men with very specific viewing points. So Trionfi.com developed to kill the wrong dragons around Tarot history ...

No. There is naturally not a contradiction. The 5x14-theory demands, that once some decks existed which had a 5x14-structure and that the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo deck belonged to them. From this perspective naturally the question develops, how the 5x14-deck disappeared and how and when it was was replaced by the normal deck with 22 speciasl cards.

From 1457 we've the note in Ferrara about "70 cards" ... so at least till that moment it seems likely, that the version with 22 special cards hadn't appeared (although there naturally was a time, when still 5x14-decks existed and decks with 22 special decks already were in existence).

The earliest Tarot productions, which clearly have 22 special cards are the Boiardo poem (theortically possible for all the years between 1461 - 1494) and the Sola-Busca-Tarocchi (suggested is 1491 or later), both rather strange decks, which show no great similarity to the standard motifs of Tarot as we know them.

So the research focussed on questions like:
1. get all and anything together that belongs to the early time of playing card research.
2. Reach the best information level, as it is possible. Research the lines which follow after the production of the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarocchi.
3. Observe the genral time for the moment, when the six card were added. Observe the relevant time for a good opportunity, when the deck reached 22 special cards.
4. Understand as much as possible about the society of this focussed time.
5. Undestand card playing in its social context.

and:

... :-) 6. Make the researched material accessible, that stupidity stops in this matter

########

From our research it is expectable (naturally not 100 % sure, but somehow the "likely" answer), that the 6 cards were added in 1465 in a specific personal action, in which France, Florence and Milan were involved.

From our research it is expectable, that the first Milanese deck with 22 special cards was produced for the marriage Galeazzo Maria Sforza - Bona of Savoy. The deck contained (likely) elements from the known Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo pattern and from French cards (Bona came from France - it was a marriage deck, so it was a "mixed" deck; "likely"). As far we assume it, this deck had no devil and no tower, it still was not the final Tarot, but it was near to it.

From the current research state the correct date for the Boiardo poem should be April-August 1469 - this is a very good moment, but not necessarily the only one possible moment.

Now it may suprize that I talk twice of a French participation in the development of Tarot: 1465 and 1468.

Yes, this is a surprize. As far we know, this has directly nothing to do with the Marseille Tarot, at least not on the short way.

###

When you think along this line, there is no contradiction between Boiardo Tarocchi poem and other suggested developments, which evolve from the 5x14-theory.

In our reconstruction of the way of Tarot, Milan creates an initial movement with first 20 special cards, then 22.
Boiardo in Ferrara answers the impulse of Milan with a creative side-step (which stays a variant, doesn't become anyhow the main line) short after the production of Milan (one should understand, that Tarot production was a "fashion", just as fresco-painting once became a fashion and triumphal festivities and playing tennis and having an own capella and theatre or opera at the courts etc.

They had "hot phases". So Trionfi cards didn't develop always, they developed in their fashion times. 1465/1468/1469, that's one of the fashion times.
Top   #4
DoctorArcanus  DoctorArcanus is offline
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Smile


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
Well, it's my prophetic day ... we've there somebody, who describes - in poetical form - what he understands with his suits ... and so should these suits be probably the best and most well known suits of 15th century ... as we've no better suit descriptions of others as far I know. So we get there a "real picture" of that, what really had been in a 15th century mind. Perhaps somebody understands that this not the answer ... no, this is the answer, at least it's the best available..
A rough translation is now complete.
Hope, Love, the Trumps and the Final Sonnet are available on:

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/index.php/Boiardo

We will copy everything to ATF after Ross has had the time to review what I have done, fix some of my bad English, and help with a few difficult verses
The Opening Sonnet, Fear and Jealousy already are on ATF.

Trying to understand better the Italian text, I found this page:
http://www.geocities.com/autorbis/viti.html
with most of the Viti text about the Boiardo text.
I think Pier Antonio Viti Da Urbino wrote at the beginning of the XVI century. I was amazed to see that he describes many of the cards.

Huck, I agree with what you write. In particular, I think that Boiardo+SolaBusca+Viti could produce some surprising results. They are three products of the same geographical area, of roughly the same time and they are intact. A wonderful opportunity for understanding more of what must have been a golden age for Tarot. I feel excited

Marco
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Oh how wonderful, thanks for this!


Three cheers for Ross and Dr. Arcanus and I'll eagerly be able to read all this on Sunday.

And thankfully for me, it'll help my poetry research on Amor and Boiardo.

4. Understand as much as possible about the society of this focussed time.
5. Understand card playing in its social context.

Ah! So Duke Ercole's card-playing interests, his mother's heritage link to Alcase-Lorraine (spelling) and the use of the French Fleur de Lys in the D'Este arms after his mother married the Marquis did have more than casual links to card-playing history. And Duke Borso's courtly delight in French romance (because he even knew more than one language of the time, even though he could neither speak nor write Latin)...

As a casual interest, I might glance at links to the Sola Busca or the so-called Mantegna of Ferrarese origin, but I'm much more interested in the Boiardo tarocchi and circle/times surrounding this.

Thank you so much!

Cerulean

Jubiliantly anticipating when I can get time...

Cerulean
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Huck  Huck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorArcanus
A rough translation is now complete.
Hope, Love, the Trumps and the Final Sonnet are available on:

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/index.php/Boiardo
Whow, that was quick, Marco and Ross. Good job. Let me express in representation of the worldwide Tarot community my deep satisfaction about it ... :-)

Quote:
We will copy everything to ATF after Ross has had the time to review what I have done, fix some of my bad English, and help with a few difficult verses
The Opening Sonnet, Fear and Jealousy already are on ATF.

Trying to understand better the Italian text, I found this page:
http://www.geocities.com/autorbis/viti.html
with most of the Viti text about the Boiardo text.
That's our page, already reachable in better optical representation in the menu of http://trionfi.com/0/h/00/
(I was not lazy, I reedited it yesterday)

Quote:
I think Pier Antonio Viti Da Urbino wrote at the beginning of the XVI century.
I think, he was dead 1500 or short after it. He wrote 1495-1500, somewhere I remind a 1497 (but likely also a guess).

Quote:
I was amazed to see that he describes many of the cards.

Huck, I agree with what you write. In particular, I think that Boiardo+SolaBusca+Viti could produce some surprising results. They are three products of the same geographical area, of roughly the same time and they are intact. A wonderful opportunity for understanding more of what must have been a golden age for Tarot. I feel excited
Marco
The poem of Boiardo likely is much earlier than Viti's action. Likely one should check the lifes, perhaps there is a how, how both did touch each other. Viti's brother, when I remember correctly, was connectable to the Muses of Urbino ... the Muses are a theme strongly influenced by Ferrara.

Then there is this context, once researched from Mari:

"The earliest Ferrarese master whose works survive in any appreciable quality is Antonio Alberti or Antonius de Ferraria, under Marquis Niccolo III. While this 'master' is described by Vasari as a pupil of Agnolo Gaddi, Edmund Garrett Gardner says this is impossible.

Antonio's dated works in the 1430s: Madonna and child dated 1433 in the chapel of the nuns of Sant Antoni inPolesine at Ferarra.
1437; Annunciation, Visitation and Adoration of the Magi with various Saints discovered at Talamello, a small place in the province of Urbino and Pesasro. In the Pinateca of Urbino, the alterpiece by from the church of San Bernadino, signed and dated 1439. Influences cited included Gentile da Fabriano.

1438: Marquis Niccolo commissioned Antonia to decorate the palace known as Paradiso with frescos of Christ in Paradise and the assembling of the Council of Ferarra. On the ground floor, there are reamins of a fresco which is either an allegory of or scene from Carolinian or Arthurian romance, depicting of a siege of a tower, from the battlements of which a woman in red, apparantly a prisoner is leaning; but there is no grounds to assign this to Antonia. The painter seems to have passed most of his life in Urbino, where he was still living in 1464, when he gave his daughter Calliope in marriage to a certain Bartolommeo Vito ordi Vite, where she became the mother of the most famous artist Timoteo Viti. "

So Master Antonio Alberti with old Ferrarese connections became grandfather of Viti.

The woman, which Viti asks about the production of the deck, is somebody who appears also in Baldassare Castiglione: "Il Cortegiano""Il Cortegiano".

See http://trionfi.com/0/p/00/40/

"Note to playing card research: Duchessa Elisabetta in the "Il Cortegiano" is the same Duchessa in Urbino, Elisabetta of Gonzaga (1471 - 1526), which appears in the text of Viti, and to whom the edition of the Boiardo-deck was dedicated. She is a granddaughter of Barbara of Brandenburg and Louis the Turk of Gonzaga. Castiglione was from 1507 - 1513 in Urbino, the text was published first in 1528 (Viti died little later than 1500). "

F4. Elisabetta, *Mantova ca 1471, +Urbino 1526; m.11.2.1489 Guidobaldo I da Montefeltro Duca di Urbino (*1472 +11.4.1508)
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/gonzaga/gonzaga2.html

She married the son of Federico Montefeltro, who got some trouble with Cesare Borgia (around the time, when the young "our" Viti died ; ??? perhaps a causal relation, militarical conflict?).

Anyway ... I can't judge the value of the Viti-text. Perhaps one could translate a few passages, which are important?
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... :-) some help desired ... about 50 persons should be identified


information-hunters desired:

http://Tarotpedia.com

search key "Boiardo"

The texts are full of "foreign names". We should identify them and we need some links in the web, which explain the background.

If you feel well with pedia's you can place the link directly in the relevant field.
Each translation should look like this (example):

"
Italian text

SPERANZA unita tien co `l corpo un'alma

Talor, che senza lei non staria in vita,

Poi spesso giunge a victoriosa palma.

English translation

HOPE sometimes keeps a body joint with

A soul, that would not live without it,

And in the end it always reaches the palm of victory.

Notes to Language Problems

Notes to Content
<------------------- HERE IS THE RIGHT PLACE for CONTENT
Field for actual Discussion

External Links to Content Problems
<------- HERE IS THE RIGHT PLACE FOR LINKS



####
If you don't feel well with pedia's, you can post it here

.. :-) thanks
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DoctorArcanus  DoctorArcanus is offline
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Pier Antonio Viti Da Urbino


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
That's our page, already reachable in better optical representation in the menu of http://trionfi.com/0/h/00/
Thank you Huck!
The page on Trionfi has an image from an original Boiardo card (Cyclops, the Knave of Love)! Thrilling!
Do you know why the text is not complete? There are a few missing sections marked by "..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huck
Anyway ... I can't judge the value of the Viti-text. Perhaps one could translate a few passages, which are important?
Hum, dangerous qestion

Marco
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Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorArcanus
Thank you Huck!
The page on Trionfi has an image from an original Boiardo card (Cyclops, the Knave of Love)! Thrilling!
Do you know why the text is not complete? There are a few missing sections marked by "..."

Marco
This is as the text is in Foŕ. I believe it is because Viti exists only in manuscript, and there are lacunae in the manuscript.

Ross
Top   #10



 


 


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