a 5000 years old prehistoric tarot oracle

[Lien Shan]

First of all: I'm not here to prove anything, because if you think that I invented the prehistoric oracle by myself, then I must be a genious

The number of 56 minorarcana signs are known from 5000 years old Stonehenge I as the 56 aubrey holes, while there were only 8 majorarcana signs in the middle; today still unknown because hidden under the BIG stones. The construction was a circular shamanic tidewater table oracle used for about 100 years.

500 years later the tidewater table was made retangular in Hermopolis of Egypt and is today known as the Book of Thoth. The signs of Stonehenge I were on disappeared wodden stags and are therefore still unknown. But from hieroglyphs we know the signs of Hermopolis: 64 horisontal three liners of either two or three snakeheads or frogheads. They were arranged in a sceme of four horisontal rows called:

primeval waters - (Naunet and Nun) - (Fool and Magican)
invincible - (Amun and Amaunet) - (Emperor - Empress)
infinity - (Heh and Hehet) - (Hierofant and High Priestess)
darkness - (Keket and Kek) - (Lovers and Eremit)

The eight (Ogdoad) names correspond in tarot to the 8 personal majorarcana cards, and are the first two vertical rows in the sceme, while the minorarcana was divided in 14 vertical rows each corresponding to
the 14 unpersonal majorarcana cards.

Each of the 64 signs shows a combination of the 8 phases of the moon with the 8 "phases of the day"
(8x8 = 64 combinations). The moonlight move vertical from top to bottom from left, while the daylight move from bottom to top from right.

Each sign is too two numbers! Each sign has two different values counted either by colour (snake/frog)
or by shape (2/3). Looked at horisontically the sceme is a continuing row of numbers, that can be counted both forewards from 2 to 65 and backwards from 65 to 2 (0 and 1 didn't exist).

Use the "number-code" below to make your own deck of cards:

0 = 3 snakeheads
1 = 2 frogheads
2 = 2 snakeheads
3 = 3 frogheads

222 333 220 331 202 313 200 311 022 133 020 131 002 113 000 111
221 330 223 332 201 310 203 312 021 130 023 132 001 110 003 112
212 303 210 301 232 323 230 321 012 103 010 101 032 123 030 121
211 300 213 302 231 320 233 322 011 100 013 102 031 120 033 122

(1th number is above, 2th number is middle, 3th number is below)
(e.g. use snakeheads = black circles and frogheads = white circles)

This was my headlines - LOL - I managed not to go into details

[Huck]

... sounds like I-Ching-structure, when you ask me.

But welcome to Aeclectic.net and to the history forum, I hope, you love it.

[Lien Shan]

... sounds like I-Ching-structure, when you ask me.

The Pharaos destroyed Hermopolis and most of the people originally coming from asia went home from where they came. 500 years later the tidewater table was used to tame the Yellow River and survived as a legend written down in the 8th of the ten wings text:

In ancient times the holy sages made the Book of Change thus:
- They invented the yarrow-stalk oracle in order to lend aid in a mysterious way to the light of the Gods. To heaven they assigned the number three and to Earth the number two; from these they computed the other numbers.
- They contemplated the changes in the dark and the light and established the hexagrams in accordance with them. They brought about movements in the firm and the yielding, and thus produced the individual lines.
Heaven and Earth determine the direction
The forces of mountain and lake are united.
Thunder and wind arouse each other.
Water and fire do not combat each other.
Thus are the eight Trigrams intermingled.
Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement.
This is why the Book of Change has backward-moving numbers

The trigrams have non-chinese names! No "experts" can explain ther origon, because the signs were made all black and the signs Water and Fire changed positions, when the chinese shandung culture made ther own 2th version of the oracle named Kuei Ts'ang (Reverting to the Hidden). That's why the "experts" can't see, that the 8 trigrams show the 8 phases of the moon.

The original oracle and tidewater table named Lien Shan (Mountains Standing Together) is as described and non-chinese. Both I Ching and Tarot have ther roots in the prehistoric oracle. I Ching as a historical fact.
Tarot a little more hard to prove, but I have explained, why and how Tarot has exactly 22 majorarcana and
56 minorarcana cards!

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Lien Shan

Both I Ching and Tarot have ther roots in the prehistoric oracle. I Ching as a historical fact.
Tarot a little more hard to prove, but I have explained, why and how Tarot has exactly 22 majorarcana and
56 minorarcana cards!

As far I remember, you haven't explained this, but I could imagine, that you interprete the above mentioned 8 as a 24 and this 24 as a 22 and then you've suddenly a 22 and a 56, and you think, that's that, what Tarot is.

But I agree, that anything which exists, "somehow" has its roots in prehistoric facts, perhaps occasionally even in prehistoric oracles. Just a matter how one defines "roots".

[jmd]

The Fu Hsui arrangement of the trigrams may be seen to reflect either diurnal, monthly or annual fluctuations (and that irrespective as to whether this was the intent). I personally do not think that we need go outside of ancient China to find the root for this.

I tend to agree that the sources of historical artefacts have antecedents (whether direct or indirect) in pre-historical developments.

I do not agree, however, think that, for example, ancient Greek, Egyptian, or even Late Antiquity artefacts are in any manner themselves Tarot. Some (such as the concepts and depictions of Justice) have carried through and found their place in Tarot. Others have not. Conversely, each card or symbol found in tarot has its non-tarot precedent in some form or other... this shows not that tarot existed in the ancient past, but that single ideas (or small groups, such as the cardinal virtues) may have antecedents.

Perhaps, however, I may have misunderstood the intent of the opening post.

[Lillie]

Originally Posted by Lien Shan

The number of 56 minorarcana signs are known from 5000 years old Stonehenge I as the 56 aubrey holes, while there were only 8 majorarcana signs in the middle; today still unknown because hidden under the BIG stones. The construction was a circular shamanic tidewater table oracle used for about 100 years.

500 years later the tidewater table was made retangular in Hermopolis of Egypt and is today known as the Book of Thoth. The signs of Stonehenge I were on disappeared wodden stags and are therefore still unknown.

Ok Aubury holes.
Yes. Contain cremations. No other use definately known.

8 unknown signs in the middle?
If they are unknown... how do you know they were there?

And same for the disappeared wooden stags.

Also. What is a tidewater table?

It's generally thought that during the first phase of stonehenge, in the centre was a wooden buiding, it's entrance alligned to the northernmost full moon rise (mid winter) Probably used for de-fleshing the dead.
But this is not certain, it's educated guess work.

[Umbrae]

...And what about the more ancient Avebury circle?

[Lillie]

I like Avebury.
I have a huge map of it from the 1600s. (a reprint, obviously. they sell them there, in the gift shop)

I have tried drawing lines, counting stones, loads of stuff.
I could never get anything out of it!
No obvious allignments or significancies at all.

Oh well.

I slept in the circle one night.
No dreams!
I was most dissapointed.

[Lien Shan]

Thanks for critical questions; that's exactly why I am here.

As far I remember, you haven't explained this, but I could imagine, that you interprete the above mentioned 8 as a 24 and this 24 as a 22 and then you've suddenly a 22 and a 56, and you think, that's that, what Tarot is.

I think that the 14 unpersonal majorarcana cards have developed from the vertical description of
the 4 "values" primeval waters, invincible, infinite, darkness, into independent cards as known today.
Maybe when it became possible to make cards?
But I'm uncertain of where to place the specific cards. I hope, that some tarot readers would like to take this as a challenge; maybe just for fun? It's like a mental puzzle ... does the order of the egyptian primeval waters, invincible, infinite and darkness correspond to wands, swords, coins and cups?
And how would you place the 22 majorarcana cards in the sceme? My own suggestion is:
0 - 1 - 7 - 8 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 18 - 19 - 20 - 21
4 - 3
5 - 2
6 - 9

The Fu Hsui arrangement of the trigrams may be seen to reflect either diurnal, monthly or annual fluctuations (and that irrespective as to whether this was the intent). I personally do not think that we need go outside of ancient China to find the root for this.

Each trigram/hexagram is a number and the "Fu Hsui arrangement" is in disorder! Easy to see, when you know how to count: The upline is either broken = 2 or whole = 3. The middle line has no value if similar to the upline or 4 if opposite. The downline has no value if similar to the upline or 2 if opposite.
Heaven 3: 3+0+0 Wind 5: 3+0+2 Water 6: 2+4+0 Mountain 9: 3+4+2 Earth 2: 2+0+0 Thunder 4: 2+0+2
Fire 7: 3+4+0 Lake 8: 2+4+2 (disorder 3-5-6-9-2-4-7-8 instead of order 3-5-7-9-2-4-6-8)
What makes sense are the pre-chinese positions of Water 6 and Fire 7. Try draw the 8 trigrams coloured:
broken = dark and whole = light. Compare with the 8 phases of the moon like the holy sages did in the legend: "They contemplated the changes in the dark and the light and established the hexagrams in accordance with them." When the topline is broken the moon is ascending and if the topline is whole the moon is descending.

And what about the more ancient Avebury circle?

Avebury was made of other people. What differs Stonehenge I from all the other henges is,
that this henge was made from the outside instead of from the inside.

Ok Aubury holes.
Yes. Contain cremations. No other use definately known.

8 unknown signs in the middle?
If they are unknown... how do you know they were there?

And same for the disappeared wooden stags.

Also. What is a tidewater table?

A tidewater table is a a tool used to tell the future time of tide. Very usefull in ancient river cultures. The principle of using the oracle is to move one sign vertical down every phase of the moon and at the same time move one sign vertical up symbolizing 1/8 back in time of a day. As told in the legend: "Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement. Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement."

To your other questions: The holes and the stags are according to the latest official archeological news.
The 8 "holes" under the BIG stones are ofcourse only my theory, but it explains the use in a natural way.

[Lillie]

Hi.

By stonehenge1 being made from the outside...
Are you refering to the bank and ditch arrangement of the actual henge?
Because you are quite right.
Most henges, in fact the very definition of henge, would state that the ditch was inside the bank (as it is at avebury, Arbor low and others). Yet at Stonehenge (where the word henge actually derives) is atypical, the bank being inside the ditch. Although I believe that originally there was a small benk on the outer side too.
This anomalie has never been satisfactorarily explained.
However, I don't know how much significance it carries.

What do you mean that Avebury was built by other people?
Avebury was neolitic in it's inception, but with later beaker involvement (especially along the avenue)
Stonehenge1 was neolitic, with later beaker and bronze age involvement in the later stages.

The proximity of the two monuments would indicate that there was a connection between the builders of the two sites.
And also the later (stonehenge 3) use of stones from the vicinity of Avebury to build the trilithons and great circle would also atest to contact between the two sites.

Can you give me a link or reference for the wooden stags?
If this is the latest official archaeological news then it should be written up somewhere.
In the book Hengeworld, by Mike Pitts, it talks about stag bones, of very ancient date being placed in the ditch as a form of offering.
But I have heard nothing of wooden stags.

The 8 holes.
You just invented them because it fit your theory?
That is very unscientific.

Tide water table.
I don't think the tides get anywhere near stonehenge, even up the rivers.
Or am I wrong?

Also, I thought the tides were a pretty easy pattern to understand for anyone who has studied them for a while.
Isn't it generally highest tides at full and dark moon, when they occure around midday and midnight? and everything else follows from that?

I'm trying to think back a couple of years when we were trying to get to somewhere that gets cut off by the tides.
I was studying tide tables and I thought there was a pretty simple pattern to them
But possibly it is more complex that I gave it credit for.
And it was a while ago.
It's just that we want to go back there, and I have been wondering if we should get more tables, or just risk it on my memories of the old ones.
cue helicopter rescue...

Anyhow.
Let me know about any link or refference for the wooden stags.
I'm curious.