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gilded goat 
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five of pentacles


can anyone out there answer me this one?
the five of pentacles is quite a sad looking card and yet astrologically its nature is mercury in taurus which gives it virtually the opposite meaning to the tarot one!.I mean mercury in taurus is sociable and friendly also it is said to have good business sense whereas the five is loss and destitution etc.
all help gratefully recieved
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dadsnook2000 
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The flip side


"whereas the five is loss and destitution etc." In my opinion the Five of Pentacles is not "loss and destitution" but represents a person "as not being able to see immediate and available resources, ignoring a more helpful path, and choosing a negative view of life."

Mercury/Taurus fits quite well with perceiving available resources and a more helpful path. Mercury also represents how one perceives, understand, catagorizes, associates and retrieves various pieces of information. You should review the Planet Series threads on Sun & Mercury where this is covered in depth. I feel that this card paints a nice picture suggesting the many ways in which Mercury can see and cope with the world and its inputs. Dave



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star-lover 
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can of worms lol


i dont like to challenge authority normally because in the main i fall flat on my face but i can't help wondering

how is this astro-tarot correspondence worked out?
i can see coins being earth signs hence taurus according to the elements
but where does the 5 come into it being mercury - thought mercury was the magician or the ones then
confused
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dadsnook2000 
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Several answers


In some systems of symbology and correlation, Mercury is associate with the number five. However, I have also seen Jupiter associated with the "five". I do not use astrological associations with the tarot in my readings as I believe the two systems are too different and that the common associations of planets and signs with the various cards are either "made up for convenience" or that they lack any solid convincing basis (in my opinion).

That said, the book "Numerology And The Divine Triangle" by Dusty Bunker and Faith Jamaine seems to be a well done reference work on the association of Tarot and Astrology and Numerology.

Dave



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Nevada 
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One traditional meaning of the card is steadfastness in marriage (through poverty or sickness).

Nevada



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isthmus nekoi 
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5 of pents in Thoth or Thoth based decks are going to be Taurus b/c it is a fixed (for pip cards 5 6 and 7) earth (pentacles) sign. As for Mercury, I don't know the system of assigning planets to pips but I'm sure there is some system at work. Not sure if Crowley got these from the GD, possibly.

As for the meaning. Flighty Mercury rules the MUTABLE signs Virgo and Gemini. Mercury is quick on his feet, nimble, clever, shifting. Now think of Taurus - of all the fixed signs, the heaviest and the slowest. Positively, there's a great deal of endurance, consistency and persistence. However, the energy of the sign is also stubborn, rigid and possessive. Whereas Mercury continually slips out of grasp - think of the adjective "mercurial".

Now think of speedy Mercury in heavy Taurus. It's an uneasy marriage. Not a negative placement astrologically, but in terms of this card, which Crowley calls "worry", you can imagine thoughts getting stuck. There's a blockage of flow, of building tension w/no proper outlets for release. That's the feel of this card, of the energy of 5 coupled with the energy of earth. Cracks are starting to show in a surface - for earth is more solid than the other elements.

Now, compare this card to the 8 of wands in which Mercury speeds through Sagittarius, untethered by details. This is hyperspeed - too much flow!
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Grigori 
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The planet order is based on the Hermetic Qabalah version of the Tree Of Life. You line up the cards in their order based on the star signs (as described by Isthmus) starting with 2 Wands (first decan of Aries). The 2 Wands gets Mars (being the start of Spring).

Then the order Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter simply repeats over and over.

3 = Binah = Saturn
4 = Chesed = Jupiter
5 = Geburah = Mars
6 = Tiphareth = Sun
7 = Netzach = Venus
8 = Hod = Mercury
9 = Yesod = Moon

(1 = Kether and 2 = Chockmah are excluded as they relate to the non-personal planets, and 10 = Malkuth is also excluded as it relates to Earth)

Ithmus's decription of the association is a really great one. There are a few good books on the topic which will give you similar help. I particularly like those of the Thoth (Duquette's or Crowleys are good places to read up). You'll need to understand some Qabalah also as its the combination of Astrology and Qabalah that inform the meanings. Looking at one without the other is missing half the story and will leave you a bit confused. (e.g. The meanings of Mercury in Taurus are also tempered by the 5's being related to Geburah in Atziluth, and also by Mars being the planet of the 5's etc..)

Hazel's Tarot Decoded uses the RWS for illustration and focuses on ways to apply astrological concordances to a Tarot reading, and is written from the point of view of an astrologer. She has attempted to make overlapping of the two systems more consistant with orthodox astrology. Although it has been said that RWS moves away from the classic meanings that were based on astrology (in part) at conception, so maybe this is not the best deck to explore the topic with.



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gilded goat 
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five pents


thanks for the help guys its been great to hear the responses;its nice to know some people actually know thier stuff,i get a bit confused with mixing astology with tarot but i presume theres a reason for it?
again thanks for the help
G
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kwaw 
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It is the 'first decan of taurus ruled by mercury', which is not quite the same as 'Mercury in Taurus'. That being said many, including for example Crowley, seem to have interpreted it as such. Easy way to remember them if you already know the astrological wheel is that they follow the days of the week round the circle of the zodiac. The GD additional meanings based on decans are from the Picatrix and Agrippa. According to Agrippa:

The first decan of taurus:
A naked man, an Archer, Harvester or Husbandman, and goeth forth to sow, plough, build, people, and divide the earth, according to the rules of Geometry;

Compare GD 5 of Pentacles:
Material Trouble Loss of money or position. Trouble about material things. Labour, toil, land cultivation; building, knowledge and acuteness of earthly things, poverty, carefulness, kindness; sometimes money regained after severe toil and labour. Unimaginative, harsh, stern, determined, obstinate.

The largely negative associations of the 5's is based on their following Levi's system in associating the numbers of the pips with the sefiroth of the ToL and thus 5's correspond with Geburah and interpreting such in a mostly negative sense [strength, judgement, severity, fear, the left of hand of god, associated with Mars and the angel of Mars Samael, the cross eyed devil and 1+2+3+4+5=15 the 'ides of the month', full moon, witches sabbath and the tarot Devil].

Full list of Agrippa decans with comparison of GD meanings can be found at Uri Raz's site here:
http://www.tarot.org.il/decans.html

Kwaw
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star-lover 
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question


how is the first decan of taurus ruled by mercury, i thought it was venus
i dont know anything about the golden dawn, so maybe their system was different to the traditional decanate rulerships
all a bit over my head anyway and i suppose it doesnt matter if you don't try and mix astrology and tarot
all this reminds me of trying to find the unified theory of everything

lol
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