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??? Maxwell <-> Grimaud <-> Arnoult <-> Marteau ???


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??? Maxwell <-> Grimaud <-> Arnoult <-> Marteau ???


In 1933 Joseph Maxwell wrote the book: "Le Tarot - Le symbole, les arcanes, la divination".
There is an english translation of this book which is quite easy to find.
It has been already mentioned on ATF that the english translation differs a lot from the original.
I was intrigued and I could get an original copy from 1933 in french:

Paris, Librairie Felix Alcan
108, Boulevard Saint Germain, 108
1933

On the first page of the book you can find an interesting remark that has been changed in the english translation.

Talking about several edtion of the TdM, Maxwell writes:
"La dernière édition donnée par la maison Grimaud n'est pas correcte ... la deuxième lame est "La Papesse" dans l'autre (he means the Grimaud edition), elle devient "Junon" ... une autre lame, la cinquième, "Le Pape" devient dans l'édition courante (he means the Grimaud edition), Jupiter ..."

"The last edition from the printhouse Grimaud is not correct ... the second card is "La Papesse" in the other (the Grimaud edition) it becomes "Junon" ... another card, the fifth, "Le Pape" becomes in the usual edition (he still means the Grimaud edition), Jupiter ..."

The english version of the book mention:
"In certain editions, confusion arises ... to substitute Juno for the High Priestess is quite erroneous"

The translator ommit to name Grimaud and speaks only from "certain editions"

* * *
As a resume:
Maxwell writes in 1933 that the last TdM Grimaud edition has Juno and Jupiter instead of La Papesse and Le Pape.

Reading this remark from Maxwell, a lot of questions come to my mind.

1. Not sure what he means with "the last Grimaud TdM edition"
Was he not aware of a Marteau edition, or was Marteaus deck not known at this time?

2. What is the deck he is speaking of?
Is it the Grimaud reproduction of the Arnoult deck?
(One went shortly on E-Bay for 329 EUROS? (e-bay Item Nr. 6046976983)
(Some scans are also to see on Trionfi: http://trionfi.com/m/d0yyyy.php%3fdecknr=5379)

3. Looking at Arnoult scans from Trionfi, to me these are exactly the same drawings as Marteaus deck.
Even the Titles are exactly the same.
Only the color changed and Junon & Jupiter.
It also seems as if there is exactly the same B . P . GRIMAUD PARIS copyright
on the cards at exactly the same place-scheme as on the pictures of the 1947 edition of Marteaus book.

On this site
http://www.camoin.com/en/restoration...ation_jodo.asp
Jodorowsky mention:
"Until now, the deck which came closest to this ideal was the Tarot of Paul Marteau. However, feature-wise, it is the exact copy of the Tarot of Besançon issued in the late 19th century, which in turn reproduced another Tarot of Besançon issued by Lequart and signed "Arnoult 1748", as computer superimposition shows."


4. Does someone knows who made the reproduction of the Arnoult deck?

5. Is this Arnoult reproduction really from 1889 or 1890 or is it possible that it was made later by Marteau?
(Sorry if this idea sounds crazy )

I hope this is not too confused or too confusing.

Best regards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coredil
1. Not sure what he means with "the last Grimaud TdM edition"
Was he not aware of a Marteau edition, or was Marteaus deck not known at this time?
Paul Marteau (IIRC) was the head of Grimaud when he wrote his books and published his decks. So the "Marteau" TdM decks and Grimaud TdM decks, during his tenureship, are the same decks.

Other tarots published by Grimaud, not TdMs, probably aren't known as Marteau decks (I don't know if they publish(ed) a Besançon type, with Junon and Jupiter, but from Maxwell it would appear so).

Interesting questions about Arnoult - I don't know the answers, but I will post if I find anything.

Ross
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The linework of the 1760 Conver and the linework of the Marteau Grimaud deck are remarkably similar. In my view at least, the Marteau Grimaud deck is based on the linework of the Conver deck (though not based on the original Conver colours nor the late 19th century Conver colours).
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Comparing Arnoult and Marteau


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Neon
The linework of the 1760 Conver and the linework of the Marteau Grimaud deck are remarkably similar. In my view at least, the Marteau Grimaud deck is based on the linework of the Conver deck (though not based on the original Conver colours nor the late 19th century Conver colours).
Surely I agree with you.
But to me one could say this for several of the re-drawings editions of the Conver.

Intrigued and curious I made a comparaison between the available scans of the Grimaud-Arnoult I could find on Trionfi and the equivalent cards of my collection:
Heron-Conver (BN), 1968 Camoin Conver, Marteau TdM and in order to have a kind of example how other re-drawings of the Conver have been made I choose the Camoin-Jodorowsky deck.

I assume that Trionfis Grimaud-Arnoult-scans are not fakes.
Sorry for this remark to Huck, but he himself pointed me to this eventuality in another thread about the Tarot de Paris. On Trionfi, the scans of the Tarot de Paris edited by Grimaud as a photoreproduction of the deck, look like a re-drawing of the deck. Huck made the remark that with enough time one could get any result from a picture.

So, assuming the Grimaud-Arnoult scans are real, I find it really extraordinary how much the line drawings seem to be identical to Marteaus TdM.
To make the comparaison easier I have attached (on this and several following post) the scans of
L'AMOUREUX, LA ROUE DE LA FORTUNE, LA LUNE and DEUX DES DENIERS.

I dont make comments for each card as I guess everyone can easily see the similitude.

But I come to the conclusion that the Line drawings and the titles of these four cards in Marteaus TdM are exactly the same as in the Grimaud edition of the Arnoult deck.
There are changes on the 2 de Deniers, but it seems as if it is to make place
for the Grimaud copyright.
Unfortunately I dont have the Grimaud-Arnoult deck, but I can easily imagine that it would be the same for all other cards (except Junon and Jupiter)

Best regards
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Roue de la Fortune


Comparing Grimaud-Arnoult and Marteau
ROUE DE LA FORTUNE
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La Lune


Comparing Grimaud-Arnoult and Marteau
La LUNE
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Deux des Deniers


Comparing Grimaud-Arnoult and Marteau
Deux des Deniers
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Thanks coredil, this is really interesting. If your conclusions are correct (and I see no reason to assume they're not), then it appears that the Marteau/Grimaud deck is a copy of another deck which Grimaud had published several decades earlier. Perhaps when Marteau wanted to publish his new version of the Marseille, he simply took the Arnoult version which his company had published in 1889/90, replaced Junon with the Papess and Jupiter with the Pope, and changed the colors.

The fact that Jodorowsky comes to the same conclusion is even more reason to assume that your theory is correct.

-- Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
Paul Marteau (IIRC) was the head of Grimaud when he wrote his books and published his decks. So the "Marteau" TdM decks and Grimaud TdM decks, during his tenureship, are the same decks.

Other tarots published by Grimaud, not TdMs, probably aren't known as Marteau decks (I don't know if they publish(ed) a Besançon type, with Junon and Jupiter, but from Maxwell it would appear so).

Interesting questions about Arnoult - I don't know the answers, but I will post if I find anything.

Ross
Hello Ross,

I am glad you find this interesting.

As I wrote "dont know what he means with the last TdM Grimaud" I wanted to point on "last".
I wonder if with "the word last", Maxwell meant a new deck printed at about the time he wrotes, or if he just meant the "last" known edition.
The thing is that I am very surprised that Maxwell does not mention at all the Marteau deck.
Reading Maxwell book in the original version it appears that he was a very accurate and serious researcher.
Even if one does not agree with his results, it seems as if he made a lot of research on the subject.
An important thing that is missing in the english translation is the 12 (twelve) pages long bibliography he added to his book.
They are really a lot of books he mentions, very precisely too.
I dont know how well distributed has been the 1930 Marteau Tarot deck, but Grimaud was a well known Print House, I cant imagine Maxwell would not have any knowledge of this deck. (remember: Maxwells book has been first printed in 1933)

I forgot to mention that Maxwell further in his book explicitely mention Arnoult deck:

"Il en est de même de l'autre édition (Arnoult, 1748) où le Pape et la Papesse sont remplacées par Jupiter et Junon."

(My translation)
"That is the same for the other edition (Arnoult, 1748) where Le Pape and La Papesse are substituded with Jupiter and Junon"

With "other" edition, Maxwell means the Grimaud edition he already mentioned at the beginning of the book

Later in his book, on the chapter about Deniers, Maxwell explicitely mention the Conver deck as the deck he uses, the deck he calls: "le jeu jugé correct" or "l'édition correcte"
"Le 2 a une physionomie particulière. Il comporte deux deniers que réunit un ruban bleu où se trouvent la date 1760 et le nom du cartographe Nas Conver."

(My translation)
"The 2 has a particular aspect. It has two coins joined through a blue ribbon where are the date 1760 and the name of the cardmaker Nas Conver"

The english edition of Maxwell adds something Maxwell did not write:
"Into the ribbon was originally set the date of the Marseille edition of 1760 with the catographer's name "Nas. Conver", changed later to B.P. Grimaud with the dates 1848 and 1930, as may be seen in recent editions by Waddington's"
(The english version was first printed in England in 1975)

All this is quite strange to me.
I can make a supposition: maybe its all about copyrights.
Has the 1930 Marteau TdM really be printed in 1930?
Maybe later?
Maybe it is something like the US Games 1971 copyright story of the RWS.
Who knows

Best regards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Thanks coredil, this is really interesting. If your conclusions are correct (and I see no reason to assume they're not), then it appears that the Marteau/Grimaud deck is a copy of another deck which Grimaud had published several decades earlier. Perhaps when Marteau wanted to publish his new version of the Marseille, he simply took the Arnoult version which his company had published in 1889/90, replaced Junon with the Papess and Jupiter with the Pope, and changed the colors.

The fact that Jodorowsky comes to the same conclusion is even more reason to assume that your theory is correct.

-- Lee
Hello Lee,

we just have crossposted.
I am glad to have awaked your interess.
I see it the same way you describe.

Best regards
Top   #10

 





 


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