So, Do I throw out -everything- I already know? Got a Definitive TdM Guide?

Fulgour said:

There is no evidence Tarot was NOT created for divination.
You can assume it was a game, but that is an assumption~
while real evidence suggests: it has always been divinatory.

Therefore of course we have Fire Water Earth Air in Tarot,
it fairly pours forth from every image. This is "DIVINATION"
something sacred~ what care I if some few made it a toy?

Click to expand...

When dealing with Tarot History, there are facts that can be demonstrated as true.

Tarot was factually used as a game for the first several hundred years of its known existence, and still is to this very day. A read through Michael J. Hurst's site Collected Fragments of Tarot History clearly shows the historical facts of tarot being used for gaming. I admit it is dry reading.... but there is a wealth of information there.

Could Tarot have also been used for divination? I would think almost certainly. We have always used random combinations to foretell the future and read omens, cards are a perfect match for this.

Are there records of Tarot being used for Divination? Yes. Mary Greer (with assistance from Lola Lucas and K. Frank Jensen) has put A Timeline of the Occult and Divinatory Tarot

Our own Ross G. Caldwell has also found a very early reference to An early mention of divination with cards: 1620

And an even earlier entry on divination with playing cards from 1507: "Gianfrancesco Pico's "De Rerum Praenotione" (On The Foreknowledge Of
Things) where he mentions sortilege using a "chartaceo ludo" -
http://www.geocities.com/anytarot/picocards.html

He also has showed us the Earliest documented form of Divination with Tarot Cards using the Bologna Tarot.

So factually, when taking these pieces of history together, we can say that Tarot was used as a game from its earliest documentation. We can say that Playing cards were used for divination from at least 1507. And we can say that Tarot was used for divination from at least 1750.

All images are symbols. The Tarot's four PRIMARY symbols are Batons, Cups, Coins and Swords. Placing the elements onto those symbols creates a SECONDARY level of symbolism. Which of the many systems we choose to assign those secondary symbols is entirely up to us.

euripedes said:

So, Do I throw out -everything- I already know?

Click to expand...

No! Just remember two essential points:
1) Tarot was created for use as a divinatory tool.
2) See point one.

le pendu said:

So factually, when taking these pieces of history together, we can say that Tarot was used as a game from its earliest documentation.

Click to expand...

Let's ask all these good people why they think
TAROT WAS CREATED AS A DIVINATORY TOOL

Names Removed

I'd love to hear what they think if their stance is based on historical, verifiable evidence.

If they can prove that Tarot was created for Divination, wonderful, it would be very exciting!

I have no desire except to base reality on reality. I seek the truth. Simply saying or wishing something is true does not make it true. I would believe the Tarot was created by Egyptians (or bogomils, or cathers, or gypsies, or the knights templar, or masons, or byzantians, or celts, or druids, or greeks, or the french, or etc...) if I were shown convincing evidence. I would believe the Tarot was created for divination if I were shown convincing evidence.

Until then, the evidence indicates that it was created probably for a card game, probably in Italy, probably in the 1400s. And there is a LOT of evidence to back that up, no matter how much I, or anyone else longs for it to be otherwise.

I don't know who the people on the above list are... but I do know who Mary Greer is, I respect her as an authority on Tarot. Same for K. Frank Jensen. I also hold Ross and Micheal in very high esteem, as well as Andy from Andy's playing cards, and Tom Tadfor Little, and James W. Revak. All of these people have spent years exploring the history of Tarot, and they back up their opinions with facts.

Honestly, I'm open, but I'll choose truth over fantasy until a fantasy is proved true.

er, guys... cool it! Let's not make this a heated debate.

Perhaps we can agree that there are differing approaches, depending upon your point of view as regards the meaning and origin of Tarot. You might argue that 'facts are facts' but facts are in fact (hah!) rarely incontravertible. History written by the ruling class literati and all that.

So lets say there are two distinct and both perfectly valid ways to approach the suits.

One, that the basic suit symbols are primary, that Tarot was, to begin with, a card game that just happened to 'represent the world as it is', something which led to its refinement as a divinatory tool.

Two, that the elements are primary, the Tarot developed firstly as a divinatory tool in the guise of a game, the symbols chosen to best represent the elements.

What follows, then?

I might also add that this thread, and the other like it, emerged from beginners seeking a way in to the Tarot de Marseilles. You aren't going to tell a beginner musician to 'feel the music, let it flow!' when they don't know what a Minim is. You aren't going to get into a discussion about the modal qualities of the folk song when they are still trying to find the 'C'. As interesting as these things are, (don't get me wrong, I find these more poetic insights fascinating) - because they are ultimately meaningless unless you have the existing schema with which to work with them. You need something to build on.

Now perhaps that isn't the best analogy because personally, I sort of hope that I've gotten a little past that stage with my reading (I'm rather at the stage of butchering Boccherini because I love the tune, even though my technique doesn't match my enthusiasm) - but there are others who would benefit from this.

There's been a lot of useful stuff said, but I think there is still room for more, keeping in mind that we are trying to establish a 'way in' to the Tarot de Marseille.

A little later I hope to share some ideas, as I'm currently sifting through a lot of material, trying to pare this number stuff down to something manageable.

warmest wishes
Euri

euripides said:

I might also add that this thread, and the other like it, emerged from beginners seeking a way in to the Tarot de Marseilles. You aren't going to tell a beginner musician to 'feel the music, let it flow!' when they don't know what a Minim is. You aren't going to get into a discussion about the modal qualities of the folk song when they are still trying to find the 'C'. As interesting as these things are, (don't get me wrong, I find these more poetic insights fascinating) - because they are ultimately meaningless unless you have the existing schema with which to work with them. You need something to build on.

Click to expand...

Yes, yes and yes.

This is how I felt. I just wanted someone to reveal how they 'actually read the b*****ds!!!'. Not so I could copy. But so I could see how someone worked with them. I wasn't interested in fantasising about what this leaf was doing and where that petal was going. Where the design may have come from (even though I appreciate that is interesting, on the side). I just wanted a structure I could build on. One that made sense. If I had gotten one (even though I found Diana's 'simplistic' style of teaching very useful - I learnt a lot with her), I might not have strayed from the pack. My enthusiasm was there to begin with. But after plugging away and feeling that I wasn't getting anywhere, it soon dampened. I didn't want a 'quick fix' deck. But I wanted one I could do something with without dreading the bloody batons coming up, or any number over 6.

I understand, in essence, the 'the deck is the book' analogy in theory, but in practice, it is not always that useful. Unless of course, you just make up your own meanings and to hell with it.

LB

A JAINIST PLAYS THE SPIRITUAL GAME OF POLO (minus the horses) TO LEARN THE HOW NUMBERS BEHAVE ON THE FIELD OF LIFE AND WIN (maybe?)

It is hot in the South, but some say it is Autumn, and nothing is more energetic than to run around a field with a polo stick. You have fire in your belly and you have had a good breakfast, but know you will need more sustenance(element of Vegetation) before the day is through.
The Marshall holds a huge Polo Stick- no wait a mo! it is made up of 10 Polo sticks. He hands me one and we have the beginnings of a Polo match. Up till now there was just the possibility of the Game but zilch chance of playing it. So I am the first mover.
I whistle up a mate and now we can alternate with the ball, and depend on each other and have a little balance and a little force. This is not enough to move forward- so we call a third player. Now we have a little more certainty and power and can celebrate the fact we know we are a team; if three can play so can ten . Four players wil make for a solid group and is orderly on the field- we won't run round in circles moving forward. It feels natural having four- we can each look in a different direction, but still back each other up and be strong like the Earth we are on. A fifth man would be good- he could be in the centre- he might also become the star of the match; he might also cause a little discord with passing the ball. Lets hope he is light on his feet. What is the perfect number for this game? Maybe six? You can have a lot of stategy with six, a lot of patterns of play. The game starts to look beautiful and symetrical. We have more chance now I think- I love this game.
If we had seven someone could take a break- there is safety in seven. We all know what seven feels like- it is all around us. It feels like if we had eight we could play forever with perfect rhythm. Nine looks powerful, three mini teams of three- now we can play really smart and triple our effort- the angels are on our side. On runs the Marshall to complete the team- he was back at the beginning- remember? He was all the team and yet not- he is the turning point- now all things are possible. We will be the perfect Polo team and will complete our mission and the Law of Polo will be upheld!
Once I figured out the game of Numbers and how they act in life, TdM no longer was unreadable. ~Rosanne

Holy cow Rosanne, that is bloody brilliant!

Polo game

Yes--What she said. Thanks, Roseanne. My head is clearer.

Are we in Leap year? That is the fastest 13 hours I have ever had!
Thanks Euripides- there was a time when I looked at TdM or pip decks and went "Huh ????" I was raised on RWS and could not for the life of me see, what non pictorial was supposed to mean. Then I realised numbers are symbols just like letters and they have a symbolic action- I kept thinking they were totally abstract and for mathematics only. Now I read with both pictures and numbers- both are illustrations of a symbolic happening and they both build another picture. I love my Bizarrio deck although it is a parody of TdM- it often tells the same story as the RWS. ~Rosanne