Marseilles Pips meanings?

Bernice

This is a quickie - supposed to be in bed.

'Vana, I haven't been using the 5 'phases' (he-he, love the word) for the suits.
I paired up the pips from 1-10. Same as the River map, 1-6, 2-7 etc, I posted a 5-pointed diagram - a rather bald one - with these paired numbers in some other thread.

So it's the pips that are the 5 'phases'. One of the pair numbers = generating. the other pair-number = controlling (over-riding/insulting whatever, depending on the cards in contact with it).

The Suits = ?. Still trying to decide about them.

Bee :)
 

Melanchollic

The great thing about the minors is that they are fluid. A ranking of 14 tokens in four 'flavors'. Basically, any system can work.

I think the only rule is to know the system. I mean really know it! Don't start assigning cards to positions on the tree of life until you are 'qualified' to do so! Reading a couple of dime-store books on Tarot is just the appetizer of course. Then you need to really find out what the 'thang' is. This means looking for PRIMARY SOURCES about whatever it is. I like the Greek stuff myself - Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras, etc., and so I use it. What really bugs me though is when I see things like this:



Cups

WATER

Represents the emotions. Best known for representing the Querent's love life, but it also stands for emotional extremes, such as elation, depression or bliss, and the negatives that come with such emotions, like over-indulgence in food, drink, drugs. Likewise the positives like poetry or music. Also, psychic powers, visions, illusions. These are feelings that you surrender to, that you flow or sink into.



Now it isn't that I'm against the idea that a CUP is not an appropriate emblem for the element of WATER. I can clearly see why that works. The problem is the given description is not correctly describing elemental Water (except for the over-indulgence in food). I'd say the above description is describing a Melancholic-Sanguine (Earth/Air).

For those looking for the 'short course' on the Western elements, a careful thoughtful study of Aristotle's On the Generation and Corruption should do the trick.


http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/corruption/book2.html


All the latter late-classical, medieval, and early modern writings on the elements follow Aristotle's lead.

The same rule applies to the use of Jewish, Chinese, or Islamic systems. Know your system! The magic isn't in which system you apply, but that the application is correct to the system itself, and congruent with the basic structure of the cards.
 

Bernice

What really bugs me though is when I see things like this:

Cups

WATER

Represents the emotions. Best known for representing the Querent's love life, but it also stands for emotional extremes, such as elation, depression or bliss, and the negatives that come with such emotions, like over-indulgence in food, drink, drugs. Likewise the positives like poetry or music. Also, psychic powers, visions, illusions. These are feelings that you surrender to, that you flow or sink into.


Now it isn't that I'm against the idea that a CUP is not an appropriate emblem for the element of WATER. I can clearly see why that works. The problem is the given description is not correctly describing elemental Water (except for the over-indulgence in food).
That's exactly why I've never felt happy with the elemental approach. And even though you prefer the greek stuff, and give a clear explanation of the nature of their elements, people still revert to the 'modern' meanings when they hear/see the element words.

There are hundreds (maybe thousands...) of books that trot out the same formulae for the Elements - plus astro-correlations - so that many people think they're the 'authentic' meanings, hence a mere mention of Earth, Water etc. triggers them into 'pot-boiler' mode.

I'm quite happy with your Greek-stuff Mel. But like you, I'm not averse to exploring elsewhere.......

HoT:
You figured it all out! You've got a pip-model based on the 5 chinese 'directions/phases/tendancies'? And you've been hugging it to yourself.... naughty, naughty girl!
Please post your 'figurings' -I'd love to see them.


Bee :)
 

SolSionnach

kwaw said:
Cards are associated with planetary and tree of life spheres on the rows; and with one of the 22 atout on the columns. The vertical attributes may vary according to how you order the signs and where you place the fool and the justice/fortitude switch. In the above for example the 6 of batons is aligned with the row of Sun / Tifaret and 5 coins with Mars/Gevurah and both fall under the column of the Maison Dieu. The fool is associated with the 10 swords which are on the row of the primum mobile and keter (ain); the WoF is 10 cups earth/malkuth; fortitude 10 batons primum mobile / keter; World 10 coins earth/malkuth, etc.
kwaw, thanks, now I see how to understand your chart, which I'd seen before, but didn't understand.
However, a question - how did you come up with the order of the suits? IOW, why is 10/epees = le fol? I don't really see that, myself, but then again, I don't know if you're using elemental attributions, or the TOL (which I don't use at all).
 

SolSionnach

Bernice said:
I've just been browsing some very interesting posts re. the possible (marseille) suit attributes from Ayumi, and links from Fulgour, in this thread (beginning with Fulgours post & links). Both historical sources, Humours etc. and scientific understandings of the 'elements' are discussed:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=979741&postcount=2
Bee
Bee, what thread is that from? Your link only shows the individual post, and I have no idea how to get to the thread...
 

SolSionnach

Bernice said:
This is a quickie - supposed to be in bed.

'Vana, I haven't been using the 5 'phases' (he-he, love the word) for the suits.
I paired up the pips from 1-10. Same as the River map, 1-6, 2-7 etc, I posted a 5-pointed diagram - a rather bald one - with these paired numbers in some other thread.

So it's the pips that are the 5 'phases'. One of the pair numbers = generating. the other pair-number = controlling (over-riding/insulting whatever, depending on the cards in contact with it).

The Suits = ?. Still trying to decide about them.

Bee :)
Oh, now I see. But there is a problem (or not, hard to say) for me, both with using numerological attribs and with the 5-phase attribs - the different suits ascend and descend differently! I can't get past that right now - unless you have the energy flow start at 1, peak at 5-6, and return to the 10 - then the 5-phase stuff would work whether you were going 1->10 or 10->1.
Melanchollic said:
The great thing about the minors is that they are fluid. A ranking of 14 tokens in four 'flavors'. Basically, any system can work.
Now I'm really confused! So we're using the court cards contiguous with the number cards? ::holds head::
Melanchollic said:
I think the only rule is to know the system. I mean really know it! Don't start assigning cards to positions on the tree of life until you are 'qualified' to do so! Reading a couple of dime-store books on Tarot is just the appetizer of course. Then you need to really find out what the 'thang' is.
Yes yes and yes.
Melanchollic said:
This means looking for PRIMARY SOURCES about whatever it is. I like the Greek stuff myself - Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras, etc., and so I use it. What really bugs me though is when I see things like this:
Cups
WATER
Represents the emotions. Best known for representing the Querent's love life, but it also stands for emotional extremes, such as elation, depression or bliss, and the negatives that come with such emotions, like over-indulgence in food, drink, drugs. Likewise the positives like poetry or music. Also, psychic powers, visions, illusions. These are feelings that you surrender to, that you flow or sink into.
Now it isn't that I'm against the idea that a CUP is not an appropriate emblem for the element of WATER. I can clearly see why that works. The problem is the given description is not correctly describing elemental Water (except for the over-indulgence in food). I'd say the above description is describing a Melancholic-Sanguine (Earth/Air).
However, given that the above is the newagey version of the element, wouldn't that understanding work within that system?
Melanchollic said:
For those looking for the 'short course' on the Western elements, a careful thoughtful study of Aristotle's On the Generation and Corruption should do the trick.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aristotle/corruption/book2.html

All the latter late-classical, medieval, and early modern writings on the elements follow Aristotle's lead.

The same rule applies to the use of Jewish, Chinese, or Islamic systems. Know your system! The magic isn't in which system you apply, but that the application is correct to the system itself, and congruent with the basic structure of the cards.
And I don't know enough about any of this to come up with a system just yet. :rolleyes:
Bernice said:
That's exactly why I've never felt happy with the elemental approach. And even though you prefer the greek stuff, and give a clear explanation of the nature of their elements, people still revert to the 'modern' meanings when they hear/see the element words.

There are hundreds (maybe thousands...) of books that trot out the same formulae for the Elements - plus astro-correlations - so that many people think they're the 'authentic' meanings, hence a mere mention of Earth, Water etc. triggers them into 'pot-boiler' mode.

I'm quite happy with your Greek-stuff Mel. But like you, I'm not averse to exploring elsewhere.......
Again, I'm boggled by all that I don't know. Waah!
Bernice said:
HoT:
You figured it all out! You've got a pip-model based on the 5 chinese 'directions/phases/tendancies'? And you've been hugging it to yourself.... naughty, naughty girl!
Please post your 'figurings' -I'd love to see them.
Bee :)
Bee, I think that HoT was referring to figuring things out elementally, but not particularly using the Chinese elements... but if that *is* what she was referring to, then hey, bring it on!
 

Hooked on TdM

Bernice said:
HoT:
You figured it all out! You've got a pip-model based on the 5 chinese 'directions/phases/tendancies'? And you've been hugging it to yourself.... naughty, naughty girl!
Please post your 'figurings' -I'd love to see them.


Bee :)

I did? *scratches head* Um.. I just figured out what made sense to me. I don't think it has anything to do with Chinese, Egyptian, Celtic.. what ever. It is a system of five though, as coins is a dually. :) My musings are already posted. I haven't really dug deeper into it.. yet. ;)

HoT
 

Melanchollic

sravana said:
So we're using the court cards contiguous with the number cards?

I can't speak for everyone (my lips are to small! ;) ), but I see the court cards as contiguous to the pips, not strictly as a numerical sequence, per se, but definitely from a hierarchical perspective.


sravana said:
Yes yes and yes.However, given that the above is the newagey version of the element, wouldn't that understanding work within that system?

I rarely buy 'newagey' books, but from what I've perused, such writers tend to work from a syncretic perspective. René Guénon explains the problem with that approach,

"...it is necessary to stress from the outset one point of particular importance, in order to dispel certain confusions that are unhappily all too frequent today, namely the fundamental difference between 'synthesis' and 'syncretism'. Syncretism consists in assembling from the outside a number of more or less incongruous elements, which, when so regarded, can never be truly unified; in short, it is a kind of eclecticism, with all the fragmentariness and incoherence that this implies. Syncretism, then, is something purely outward and superficial; the elements taken from every quarter and put together in this way can never amount to anything more than borrowings that are incapable of being effectively integrated into a doctrine worthy of the name.

Synthesis on the other hand is carried out essentially from within, by which we mean that it properly consists in envisaging things in the unity of their principle, in seeing how they derived from and depend on that principle, and thus uniting them - or rather becoming aware of their real unity - by virtue of a wholly inward bond, inherent in what is most profound in their nature."1


Even some fairly respected tarot writers have been guilty of this. Brian Williams, in his Guide to the Renaissance Tarot gives a nice summary of the history of the classical elemental system, name dropping the usual suspects, Anaximander, Empedocles, Aristotle, and explains how the elements are combined from the four powers, how they are manifested in human character through the humors, etc. (pp.141). It is a nice well written introduction I'd say. Unfortunately on page 155, when he starts describing the nature of the Suit of Cups, he claims their watery (cold/moist) nature gives them "influences of mystery, emotion, and fecundity". Where did that come from!? Why bother with the summary and history lesson if he was just going to regurgitate the GD party-line? :D

Oh Sravana, it's funny but true. Let's have pie and coffee and figure out what to do about this! ;)











1. Guénon, René, The Symbolism of the Cross (1931), trans. by Angus Macnad. Sophia Perennis, Hillsdale NY, 2004. pp. 2

2. Williams, Brian, A Renaissance Tarot - A Guide to the Renaissance Tarot, U.S. Games Systems, Stamford, CT, 1994.
 

SolSionnach

Melanchollic said:
I can't speak for everyone (my lips are to small! ;) ), but I see the court cards as contiguous to the pips, not strictly as a numerical sequence, per se, but definitely from a hierarchical perspective.
I guess I was thinking about this sequence, which you posted somewhere here on AT (you're everywhere! I can't keep track of you!! :))
GOOD

CUPS
King
Queen
Knight
Valet
..1
..2......COINS
..3.......King
..4......Queen
..5......Knight
..6.......Valet
..7..........1
..8..........2........BATONS
..9..........3..........King
.10.........4.........Queen
.............5.........Knight
.............6..........Valet
.............7............10

.............8.............9..........SWORDS
.............9.............8.............King
............10............7............Queen
...........................6............Knight
...........................5.............Valet
...........................4...............10
...........................3................9
...........................2................8
...........................1................7
............................................6
............................................5
............................................4
............................................3
............................................2
............................................1

..........................................BAD
Ah yes, it was in the Astrological spread thread.
Anyway, I was looking at that yesterday, and noticed that the midpoint of this is around 6/7 Coins-Valet/1 Batons - but if the Courts were taken out of the sequence:
GOOD

CUPS
..1
..2
..3
..4
..5
..6......COINS
..7..........1
..8..........2
..9..........3
.10.........4
.............5
.............6........BATONS
.............7............10
.............8.............9
.............9.............8
............10............7
...........................6
...........................5..........SWORDS
...........................4...............10
...........................3................9
...........................2................8
...........................1................7
............................................6
............................................5
............................................4
............................................3
............................................2
............................................1

..........................................BAD
Then the midpoint is the 8/coins-9/batons. I guess I was looking for the place where the influence of the card passes from okay to not-okay, and was surprised to see that it happens at a different place when the courts are not contiguous with the pips.
I'm not sure that I want to keep the courts in that continuum for myself.
Melanchollic said:
I rarely buy 'newagey' books, but from what I've perused, such writers tend to work from a syncretic perspective. René Guénon explains the problem with that approach,
oops. the quote didn't quote. That being said, it was interesting to see the difference between syncreticism and synthesis laid out so well. I've never really had a problem with syncreticism (thinking here of Latin American Catholicism and La Virgin de Guadalupe, among others), and my own spirituality tends toward the syncretic. And, of course, it's all OVER the tarot world. But I guess that's not what we're doing here, now.
Melanchollic said:
Even some fairly respected tarot writers have been guilty of this. Brian Williams, in his Guide to the Renaissance Tarot gives a nice summary of the history of the classical elemental system, name dropping the usual suspects, Anaximander, Empedocles, Aristotle, and explains how the elements are combined from the four powers, how they are manifested in human character through the humors, etc. (pp.141). It is a nice well written introduction I'd say. Unfortunately on page 155, when he starts describing the nature of the Suit of Cups, he claims their watery (cold/moist) nature gives them "influences of mystery, emotion, and fecundity".
Okay, I need for you to enlighten me. I'm not up on cold/moist, but how would you classify "influences of mystery, emotion, and fecundity"? Where do you find fecundity in the 4 element system? I'm not being obtuse here, I really don't understand this very well. (I suppose I should go dig through that link you posted earlier if I want to pick your brain, eh? Okay, I'll read that tomorrow! it's bedtime here...)
Melanchollic said:
Where did that come from!? Why bother with the summary and history lesson if he was just going to regurgitate the GD party-line? :D

Oh Sravana, it's funny but true. Let's have pie and coffee and figure out what to do about this! ;)
Well, I'm going to be in Japan (Tokyo) next summer - if you're nearby we can do that! :) :) :p
Melanchollic said:
1. Guénon, René, The Symbolism of the Cross (1931), trans. by Angus Macnad. Sophia Perennis, Hillsdale NY, 2004. pp. 2

2. Williams, Brian, A Renaissance Tarot - A Guide to the Renaissance Tarot, U.S. Games Systems, Stamford, CT, 1994.
 

Melanchollic

sravana said:
Okay, I need for you to enlighten me. I'm not up on cold/moist, but how would you classify "influences of mystery, emotion, and fecundity"? Where do you find fecundity in the 4 element system?


Each of the four Elements is a combination of two Powers. The Powers, like the Elements are not talking about actual substances, but are 'code words' for a collection of related qualities that share certain behaviors. The four Powers are:

Heat - Causes things of the same kind to join, so each seeks it's own and things that are different separate, hence it is the source of separation, differentiation, discrimination, dissociation, and opposition. Heat is expansive, outward directed, energetic. It is speed. It is the cause of change, analysis, judgement, justice, honesty, critical thinking, skillfulness, diligence, authority, selfishness, intolerance, willfulness, and dominance.

Dryness - Dryness is contractive, gives shape and is formative. It causes rigidity, solidity, purpose, and practicality. It is unreceptive, inflexible, commanding, arguing, strict, concrete, of long duration, and grounded.

Cold - Unites things. It is mixing, joining, synthetic, relating, loving, undiscriminating, indecisive, slow, nurturing, sympathetic, cooperative, and sluggish.

Moisture - Has a lack of self-determination, and conforms to its surroundings. It is receptive, adaptive, form receiving, flexible, fluid, short of duration, mercurial, unreliable, indefinite and lacking self control. It is agile, gentle, obedient, conforming, passive, yielding, accommodating, weak, sensitive, understanding, kind, empathetic, and compassionate.



Fire = Dryness + Heat

Air = Heat + Moisture

Water = Moisture + Cold

Earth = Cold + Dryness



So, Water, being Cold+Moist is uniting and flexible, slow reacting and short of duration. The Water person would be accommodating, tolerant, frugal, and inoffensive, but timid, sluggish, uncreative, unresponsive, unmotivated, and rather emotionally indifferent.

As for "mysterious" this would be the Earthy Melanchollic (Cold+Dry). They are slow reacting but long of duration, this makes them introspective, penetrating, reflective, and visionary, but they are also critical, solitary, depressed, withdrawn and unforgiving.

As for "emotion", it depends on which emotion you are talking about. The fiery Choleric is angry, the airy Sanguine is cheerful, and the Melancholic is, well... melancholy.

Fecundity would probably fit best with either of the 'dry' elements, Fire or Earth. These have the ability to make their ideas happen (long of duration). Air is full of quick inspirations, but rarely has the ability to manifest the ideas. Phlegmatics are like Hobbits, they like to be comfortable, not productive or creative. Earth is slow and reflective, so deep and penetrating ideas are born from the Melancholic mind. Fire is quick and has duration, and the Choleric energy and competitiveness is endlessly productive, though anger and ego can be real hurdles.