5 swords: really defeat? - Page 2

Voron · 23-12-2006

When I was using the RWS for my daily drawings, this card came up one day. I basicallt but it out of my mind and got on with my day.

Much later, that evening, I got in this terrible verbal argument with one of my best friends. A "get out of my house" sort of argument. It was totally an argument based on a misinterpretation of something I said, and wasn't listening to my explanation and was being super-defensive and irrational. I felt like I was in the right, and was rather smug and indignant about it.

After the argument was over and I calmed down, I remembered the card. I nothing short of an epiphany concerning the true meaning of the card.
It doesn't matter whether you win or lose, but the conflict and ill-will is in itself defeat.
This is very different feel from the 5 of wands, which I see to be fierce
competition -- but it can be playful and good-natured (or cruel and vicious).

But the 5 of swords doesn't seem to have such a positive option. It seems this is an unavoidable win-or-lose situation, and a defeat for one person is a defeat for us all.

The clouds make the weather look ominous in the card -- like a storm is brewing; it is at least windy. Perhaps the scattered clouds are related to things being unclear -- the misperceptions at the heart of my particular experience. The differing points of view and inability for each party to see them that is at the heart of all arguments.

I've always seen him as picking up the swords -- probably because the two he's holding are stacked so neatly. Pehaps picking them up isn't a bad thing -- if they represent differing points of view. In that case, wouldn't leaving the discarded ones on the ground be a waste? Perhaps the goal is to value opposing viewpoints even after we've won an argument. Similar to the US Supreme Court's reading of the dissenting opinion.

**Apollonia** · 23-12-2006

When this card comes up in the position of Goal (either conscious or unconscious), it often signifies to me that the querent's goal in the situation is to "rub it in." I see it as a "Nyah, nyah, nyah," kind of thing.

I had it come up recently where the querent was asking about finding a husband, and she admitted that a big part of her goal of getting married was to be able to say, "See?" to her family and friends.

Umbrae · 23-12-2006

love this card...

To Defeat in a shameful way?

Or to be shamefully humiliated?

Oh not me...no I never treat others poorly...and that is usually the meaning when this little guy shows up. It's generally the indicator that we're the ones stirring the pot, and we sure don't wanna admit that one, and to have a reader imply that I'm the one stirring the pot? Well I never. So much for her tip, I'll never go back to that reader...

Until realization hits them...

**YDM42** · 23-12-2006

Umbrae, I agree with you- what you say parallels my experince with 5 of Swords, it usually shows up when I'm giving someone heck or juggling an uncertian situation where I have to choose my words carefully, not being dishonest but not reveling the entire truth. Politics. Humiliation...good words.

caridwen · 23-12-2006

It depends who you relate to in the card. There are three figures; the one smirking and holding the swords, the one with his back to us in the middle and the one by the water apparently weeping.

What has gone on in the card as it's obviously the end of a situation, is ambiguous. Is the person holding the swords one of the swordsmen or is he an assistant waiting for his master to come back (the one in the middle). Is he grinning because his master has won a fight?

The sky is ragged as though the swords ripped through the clouds so the air has been cleared, that's at least positive. Yet he holds three swords relating to the pain experienced in the Three. Two swords lay at odd angles to each other as though the stillness and contemplation of the Two has been tossed aside. There is now a kind of wary peace.

It's interesting as well the way the main protagonists' clothes are blown to the right yet the person in the middle's hair is blown to the left as though there is still a difference of opinion and maybe, like the two swords they are still at odds with each other.

It looks as though the person in the middle is walking towards the crying figure but what exactly is he doing? His stance is the same as the one holding the swords, it looks as though he's not moving but just standing there watching him. It has been suggested that maybe he is waiting for the other person to calm themselves down and not impose on their humiliation. They could also be about to walk towards them to console them.

I had an argument with someone once and there were three people involved. I felt utterly defeated by the argument and was at a loss as to why it had even happened. The person who 'won' really did gloat and did some terrible things behind my back when I was trying to remain as dignified as possible. But they didn't win, not really, not in any respectful way. Snide underhand people rarely do.

It's a very interesting card and well worth exploring, thanks for bringing it up again

Bronwyn86 · 23-12-2006

I have gotten the impression that this is someone who laughs in the face of defeat. He stands his ground and picks the swords up even though help is available.

Is this a good thing, well I found that when tied with the five of wands, the concept of standing ground goes too far, but on its own I do see it as a positive card.

namesoftrees · 05-01-2007

I just have to say I think this guy is so NOT putting the swords down..

he has more swords than he needs

he hasn't just won over his opponents, he's disarmed them.

He's the kid the other kids are scared of when the teacher's not around.

He's also not likely to be friends with these guys very easily.

**tmgrl2** · 05-01-2007

...and maybe the figure is simply a "keeper of the swords."

Maybe the other two figures are "warriors" going off to rest, they have set their swords on the ground for the keeper to gather...

OK...swordsmen don't usually let their swords go into another's care...

Maybe...the two walking away are "bad guys" in the troup, and this person is going to take away their swords so the "bad guys" can't use them wrongfully.
With the backs turned, it would then seem as though the person who is gathering the swords is doing so "behind the backs" of the ones who shouldn't be handling swords.

I'm just playing here...but I find that when the cards come up in a reading, I am usually surprised at what comes up as I reflect on the card. As a five, I think of a number of "order" and "disorder"...(thanks, umbrae...that from your take on the numbers). So...moving on a continuum from one to the other...away from one and toward the other.

Rather than think of the card as either positive or negative, I like to see what happens when it appears in a reading.

I like Appollonia's nyah, nyah, nyah....definitely a mood that this card can carry.

Also, which figures seem to be the focus when the card appears...the ones in the background or the one in the foreground?

Do we sometimes have to see ourselves with all of our warts or flaws, shunned by others for how we behave ...in order to have an awakening of mind or spirit?

TenOfSwords · 05-01-2007

A group of scientists develop an amazing new theory and a laboratory assistant points out a fundamental flaw in the math they've based it all on.

A district attorney develops and presents the perfect case against a mobster and the crown witness that the entire case depends on shows up and starts lying.

5 of swords ~ defeat

Let the reading decide what it means, good or bad, justified or unfair, don't dictate. No need to.

**tmgrl2** · 05-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by TenOfSwords

Let the reading decide what it means, good or bad, justified or unfair, don't dictate. No need to.

Ditto.

terri

Voron Citizen Join Date: 21 Dec 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD -- USA Posts: 243	Conflict = Defeat When I was using the RWS for my daily drawings, this card came up one day. I basicallt but it out of my mind and got on with my day. Much later, that evening, I got in this terrible verbal argument with one of my best friends. A "get out of my house" sort of argument. It was totally an argument based on a misinterpretation of something I said, and wasn't listening to my explanation and was being super-defensive and irrational. I felt like I was in the right, and was rather smug and indignant about it. After the argument was over and I calmed down, I remembered the card. I nothing short of an epiphany concerning the true meaning of the card. It doesn't matter whether you win or lose, but the conflict and ill-will is in itself defeat. This is very different feel from the 5 of wands, which I see to be fierce competition -- but it can be playful and good-natured (or cruel and vicious). But the 5 of swords doesn't seem to have such a positive option. It seems this is an unavoidable win-or-lose situation, and a defeat for one person is a defeat for us all. The clouds make the weather look ominous in the card -- like a storm is brewing; it is at least windy. Perhaps the scattered clouds are related to things being unclear -- the misperceptions at the heart of my particular experience. The differing points of view and inability for each party to see them that is at the heart of all arguments. I've always seen him as picking up the swords -- probably because the two he's holding are stacked so neatly. Pehaps picking them up isn't a bad thing -- if they represent differing points of view. In that case, wouldn't leaving the discarded ones on the ground be a waste? Perhaps the goal is to value opposing viewpoints even after we've won an argument. Similar to the US Supreme Court's reading of the dissenting opinion.

23-12-2006	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #11

YDM42 Knowable Join Date: 07 Jul 2006 Location: USA Posts: 3,923	Umbrae, I agree with you- what you say parallels my experince with 5 of Swords, it usually shows up when I'm giving someone heck or juggling an uncertian situation where I have to choose my words carefully, not being dishonest but not reveling the entire truth. Politics. Humiliation...good words. Last edited by YDM42; 23-12-2006 at 06:35.

23-12-2006	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #14

namesoftrees Citizen Join Date: 31 Oct 2005 Location: South Pacific Posts: 305	I just have to say I think this guy is so NOT putting the swords down.. he has more swords than he needs he hasn't just won over his opponents, he's disarmed them. He's the kid the other kids are scared of when the teacher's not around. He's also not likely to be friends with these guys very easily. __________________ all the world's a stage.. ...___-=o0o=-___...

05-01-2007	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #17

tmgrl2 Citizen Join Date: 15 Feb 2004 Location: NY, US Posts: 8,359	...and maybe the figure is simply a "keeper of the swords." Maybe the other two figures are "warriors" going off to rest, they have set their swords on the ground for the keeper to gather... OK...swordsmen don't usually let their swords go into another's care... Maybe...the two walking away are "bad guys" in the troup, and this person is going to take away their swords so the "bad guys" can't use them wrongfully. With the backs turned, it would then seem as though the person who is gathering the swords is doing so "behind the backs" of the ones who shouldn't be handling swords. I'm just playing here...but I find that when the cards come up in a reading, I am usually surprised at what comes up as I reflect on the card. As a five, I think of a number of "order" and "disorder"...(thanks, umbrae...that from your take on the numbers). So...moving on a continuum from one to the other...away from one and toward the other. Rather than think of the card as either positive or negative, I like to see what happens when it appears in a reading. I like Appollonia's nyah, nyah, nyah....definitely a mood that this card can carry. Also, which figures seem to be the focus when the card appears...the ones in the background or the one in the foreground? Do we sometimes have to see ourselves with all of our warts or flaws, shunned by others for how we behave ...in order to have an awakening of mind or spirit? __________________ For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible. ................Edgar Cayce

05-01-2007	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #18

TenOfSwords Citizen Join Date: 10 May 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 415	A group of scientists develop an amazing new theory and a laboratory assistant points out a fundamental flaw in the math they've based it all on. A district attorney develops and presents the perfect case against a mobster and the crown witness that the entire case depends on shows up and starts lying. 5 of swords ~ defeat Let the reading decide what it means, good or bad, justified or unfair, don't dictate. No need to. __________________ In real life... It's the curious cat that kills you.

05-01-2007	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #19

Apollonia Citizen Join Date: 14 Aug 2004 Location: Midwest USA Posts: 2,098	When this card comes up in the position of Goal (either conscious or unconscious), it often signifies to me that the querent's goal in the situation is to "rub it in." I see it as a "Nyah, nyah, nyah," kind of thing. I had it come up recently where the querent was asking about finding a husband, and she admitted that a big part of her goal of getting married was to be able to say, "See?" to her family and friends.

23-12-2006	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #12

Umbrae Citizen Join Date: 20 Mar 2002 Location: Upper Left-Coast, USA Posts: 8,847	love this card... To Defeat in a shameful way? Or to be shamefully humiliated? Oh not me...no I never treat others poorly...and that is usually the meaning when this little guy shows up. It's generally the indicator that we're the ones stirring the pot, and we sure don't wanna admit that one, and to have a reader imply that I'm the one stirring the pot? Well I never. So much for her tip, I'll never go back to that reader... Until realization hits them...

23-12-2006	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #13

caridwen Citizen Join Date: 13 Jan 2005 Location: *** Posts: 7,725	It depends who you relate to in the card. There are three figures; the one smirking and holding the swords, the one with his back to us in the middle and the one by the water apparently weeping. What has gone on in the card as it's obviously the end of a situation, is ambiguous. Is the person holding the swords one of the swordsmen or is he an assistant waiting for his master to come back (the one in the middle). Is he grinning because his master has won a fight? The sky is ragged as though the swords ripped through the clouds so the air has been cleared, that's at least positive. Yet he holds three swords relating to the pain experienced in the Three. Two swords lay at odd angles to each other as though the stillness and contemplation of the Two has been tossed aside. There is now a kind of wary peace. It's interesting as well the way the main protagonists' clothes are blown to the right yet the person in the middle's hair is blown to the left as though there is still a difference of opinion and maybe, like the two swords they are still at odds with each other. It looks as though the person in the middle is walking towards the crying figure but what exactly is he doing? His stance is the same as the one holding the swords, it looks as though he's not moving but just standing there watching him. It has been suggested that maybe he is waiting for the other person to calm themselves down and not impose on their humiliation. They could also be about to walk towards them to console them. I had an argument with someone once and there were three people involved. I felt utterly defeated by the argument and was at a loss as to why it had even happened. The person who 'won' really did gloat and did some terrible things behind my back when I was trying to remain as dignified as possible. But they didn't win, not really, not in any respectful way. Snide underhand people rarely do. It's a very interesting card and well worth exploring, thanks for bringing it up again

23-12-2006	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #15

Bronwyn86 Resident Join Date: 29 Aug 2006 Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 74	I have gotten the impression that this is someone who laughs in the face of defeat. He stands his ground and picks the swords up even though help is available. Is this a good thing, well I found that when tied with the five of wands, the concept of standing ground goes too far, but on its own I do see it as a positive card.

23-12-2006	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #16

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