A Different Route Considered?

[Umbrae]

Originally Posted by Fulgour

But do you think, like Ronald Decker, he would write
a book illustrating the kabbalah using Scapini's deck?

Well I know that Decker had difficulty with Scapini’s Levi approach to Kabbalah. But he did incorporate Scapini's view into the book. And then offered the more accepted Western approach.

Now Webster…here’s a concrete example. He wrote this book “Aura Reading For Beginners”. Everything you’d wanna know about reading auras. Reviews are all from newbies ‘learning how’ (on Amazon).

But Richard Webster does not believe in seeing Auras. He discusses his belief as being a complete sham on one of his CD’s on Cold Reading for Magicians. And further, he then tells you to buy his book so you can learn to scam others!

Now am I really going to trust his Fung Shui book? Pendulums for Beginners? How about his “How to Write for the New Age Market”?

nope - they don't deliver up in the hills

[Fulgour]

Here is a picture of "Richard Webster" and his website:
http://www.psychic.co.nz/

CLIP Richard is "probably New Zealand's most successful author."
http://www.psychic.co.nz/biography.aspx

[gregory]

I have Dummett. I have Huson. I am lost. I am going back to the books. I can at least understand them.

And I shall put a pizza in the oven right now; they never deliver up here !

No, but really - this is getting very esoteric anyway (not that I mind that as such) without the "in asides" if you guys don't mind my saying so. I disagreed the other day with someone who said maybe there should be beginner historical threads, as I thought that would terminally confuse things and also lead to duplication and wasted bandwidth. But I may be about to change my mind....

Still think it started as a game though. Let's not forget the Mamluk cards.

[John Meador]

Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell

<respectfully snipped.
"...but it is certain (to me and him) that tarot was not assimilated to esoteric thought until the late 18th century. "

When I hear historians use the word "certain", I detect opinion where fact is proposed.

Even I (at this point in time ) consider it doubtful, but certain is a powerful term that one should beware of.

The Great Silence in the litter of detectable evidence on the matter is seductive in its persuasion of the validity of the above assertion.

I'm waiting for the final veil to drop.

-John

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by Fulgour

Here is a picture of "Richard Webster" and his website:
http://www.psychic.co.nz/

CLIP Richard is "probably New Zealand's most successful author."
http://www.psychic.co.nz/biography.aspx

Well, I'm biased already (never heard of him until this thread), but that picture don't help none.

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by John Meador

When I hear historians use the word "certain", I detect opinion where fact is proposed.

Even I (at this point in time ) consider it doubtful, but certain is a powerful term that one should beware of.

The Great Silence in the litter of detectable evidence on the matter is seductive in its persuasion of the validity of the above assertion.

I'm waiting for the final veil to drop.

-John

I know what you mean, you can take the parentheses off (I realize where opinion starts).

But the detectable evidence, in the form of written documents about esoteric subjects, is huge from the late 15th century on. And it doesn't mention tarot until after Court de Gébelin. It is a strong argument from silence.

I think the Great Silence indicates that nobody saw the Book of Thoth in tarot cards until Antoine Court de Gébelin wrote.

Now if we could just find that Pauw (or Paw) reference...

[Ross G Caldwell]

Originally Posted by John Meador

When I hear historians use the word "certain", I detect opinion where fact is proposed.

Even I (at this point in time ) consider it doubtful, but certain is a powerful term that one should beware of.

The Great Silence in the litter of detectable evidence on the matter is seductive in its persuasion of the validity of the above assertion.

I'm waiting for the final veil to drop.

-John

You're right to detect opinion with the word "certain", but facts don't need the word "certain" to support them, so I disagree that fact is being proposed with that word.

For instance, I would never say "It is certain that the earliest instance of the term 'cartexelle da trionffy' is in the d'Este account books for February 10, 1442". I don't need to say it, since it's simply true. It's a fact.

Certainty simply indicates the highest degree of probability - an opinion, a deduction perhaps, but not a fact.

Facts don't have any degree of probability - they just are, and we have to live with them.

So I didn't mean to mislead by using the term "certain" - but I AM certain. That's not the same as asserting that my certainty is the truth.

[John Meador]

Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell

<respectfully snipped>
"But the detectable evidence, in the form of written documents about esoteric subjects, is huge from the late 15th century on. And it doesn't mention tarot until after Court de Gébelin. It is a strong argument from silence.

I think the Great Silence indicates that nobody saw the Book of Thoth in tarot cards until Antoine Court de Gébelin wrote.

Now if we could just find that Pauw (or Paw) reference...

As Levi (in his own way) alludes to the 1646 centennial edition of Guillaume Postel's Clavis' illustration by Abraham von Franckenberg which depicts an arrangement of letters that read from the top down TARO, from the bottom up ROTA. This is the single instance I'm aware of that gives a possible exception. Ron Decker is on record as asserting (without stating why) certainty that Franckenberg meant only ROTA. However:

"The reimposition of the tax in 1622 evoked a new protest from the maistres et ouvriers de cartes et tarotz of Lyons in 1623, which says that many had left for Switzerland and Besancon in order to escape the new tax, and, in particular, that the Duke of Savoy had lured many cardmakers to Turin and Chambery. The Lyons cardmakers, more fortunate that their colleagues in Rouen, succeeded in getting the tax annulled for Lyons in 1623.<D'Allemagne vol. I, pp. 297-8, vol. II, pp. 244, 246, 492, 502.> Their statutes were revised in 1650; article 9 continued to refer to taros. < Ibid., vol. II, p. 258>." -Michael Dummett: Game of Tarot, 1980, p. 204. <Dummett italicises that last word: taros>

Unfortunately, the detailed studies on von Franckenberg are in German, which I don't read. Such as:
Abraham von Franckenberg und die Rosenkreuzer. Zur Datierung der Tabula Universalis Theosophica Mystica et Cabalistica von 1623, in: Rosenkreuz als europäisches Phänomen des 17. Jahrhunderts (see no. 38), 234-268
-Rosenkreuz als europäisches Phänomen im 17. Jahrhundert. F. Niewöhner and C. Gilly, eds. (Pimander. Texts and Studies published by the Bibliotheca Philosophica Hermetica 7). Amsterdam 2001. Bound, 406 pp. Index, illus.
ISBN 3 7728 2206 1. Price € 32

von Franckenberg studied Hermeticism, the works of Giordano Bruno and Valentinian gnosticism, cabala, was a Paracelsian physician, confidant of J. Boehme and a Rosicrucian.

"Summing up, I suggest that the Wroclaw Ms of D.O.M.A. is the original of all the other texts and was produced in the second half of the 17th century (most probably around 1650).

Now, the question arises who was its author or authors? To answer it is quite difficult as there is nothing in the text itself that would be of any help however, we can speculate that the D.O.M.A., manuscript from Wroclaw was produced in Silesia, i.e. that it was not brought there from some other part of Europe. If so, then we have a number of people connected with Rosicrucianism to take under consideration. First of all there is Jacob Boehme in Zgorzelec (Goerlitz) at the beginning of the 17th century. The influence of his thought on the D.O.M.A. is obvious in many fragments of the text though the diagrams are not similar to those in the Gichtel edition of his works. But, as M.P. Hall pointed out, Gichtel's illustrations are independent of Boehme's text and therefore the D.O.M.A. illustrations may have been inspired by Boehme in the same way. One of Boehme's friends and students was Abraham von Franckenberg, also from Silesia (actually he lived in Wroclaw), who was the first editor of the Teutonic Philosopher's writings. Von Franckenberg was actively interested in Rosicrucianism, which is confirmed by his extant letters which he exchanged with various people in all parts of Europe. He travelled to the towns where the Rosicrucian Order is said to have been active, especially Gdansk (Danzig), where he stayed on several occasions. Gdansk was the place of publication of several early Rosicrucian documents and replies to the Fama for example:
De Fratribus Rosae Crucis by Henrico Neuhusio (Neuhaus). 1610 (?) and 1617

Echo der ... Fraternitet des Lobl. Ordens R.C. by Julius Sperber, 1615 and 1620, one of the most important and influential early Rosicrucian documents.

Assertion oder Bestatigung der Fraternitet R.C., 1616.

Exemplarischer Beweis, dass das in der Fama und Confession ..., 1616.

Proeludium de castitate etc. Scriptum ad Ven. Fratres R.C., 1617.

Schnelle Botschaft an die Philosophische Fraternitet vom R.C., by Valentin Tschirness, 1617, the same was published a year earlier in Goerlitz and thus shows the connection of Silesian and Gdansk Rosicrucian circles.

Ohne die ReFORMation, 1618, an edition of Fama and Confessio.

Pia et utilissima admonitio de Fratribus R.C. by Henrico Neuhusio, 1622 and 1628, apparently the same work as he first one above, which would mean it had four editions in Gdansk; it should be noted that it is against Rosicrucians."
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/lampado.html

"Franckenberg aspired to the most comprehensive world-view which the quasi-scientific knowledge of his day permitted. He availed himself of every key, no matter how questionable its shape, to unlock the universal mystery. He studied the Cabala and was deeply learned in the lore of Alchemy, that semi-mystical system which contained within itself the seeds of an experimental science. He eagerly absorbed the ideas of Giordano Bruno, though not without a certain shrinking from their pantheistic tendencies. In the discoveries of Copernicus he became aware of the melting into infinity of the static universe of medieval tradition, with its fixed spheres and local heaven.

Such freedom of thought, verging indeed upon heresy, necessarily rendered Franckenberg obnoxious to the Lutheran clergy, of whose bigoted dogmatism he on his part only expressed his abhorrence. Rather, however, than embroil himself in a controversy which was repellent to his peace-loving nature he quitted Ludwigsdorf in 1641 and passed the greater part of the next eight years at Danzig, where he was the guest of the astronomer Helvelius. It was from this sojourn that we find him returning home in the early winter of 1649."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/sil/scw/scw003.htm

We have heard claims that Martinism and the Elus Cohen had some historical relationship with Tarot. Was Franckenberg affiliated with this "ORDER OF UNKNOWN PHILOSOPHERS"?

"Some sources state that Saint-Martin quickly became a teaching
force within the ranks of the "THE ORDER OF UNKNOWN PHILOSOPHERS".
"Claiming connection with an ancient Order, dating back to 1643 of a
'Rosicrucian character' and having Heinrich Khunrath, Alexander
Sethon, Sendivogius, and Boehme among its ranks, the Society of
Unknown Philosophers also linked itself to "Les Freres d Orient"
created in Constantinople in 1090. The teachings of this society were
conveyed from teacher to disciple and the their principle unifying
form was the distinction of receiving "The Initiation" which gave
them the right to be known as "Unknown Superiors" or "Superieurs
Inconnus" or S.I. as it is written. Saint-Martin's writings, under
the pseudonym "The Unknown Philosopher," made him quite in demand
among European aristocracy"
KABBALAH & THE HERMETIC TRADITION, Mark
Stavish http://www.hermetic.com/stavish/essays/kabbalah-
hermetic.html

We know that Alexander Dicson and Girolamo Cardano, men tied to fraternal circles, utilized the art of memory in card-playing. For connections between the Mason Word & the art of memory see:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=68882

"But the organization which bears the closest family resemblance to
the Rosicrucian brotherhood and which may have been the most direct
model for it was a society called the Orden der Unzertrennlichen,
or Indissolubilisten (the Order of the Inseparables), which was
founded in 1577 and later became linked with the Fruchtbringende
Gesellschaft. "

"In his monumental book on esoteric movements, Die Erleuchteten,
Karl Frick describes the symbolism used by the Unzertrennlichen.
In their meetings a bible, skull and hour glass stood on a table.
Their symbols included Sun, Moon and stars, a female figure
representing Pansophia, a compass, a circle and three globes. They
also spoke of ascending seven steps to a 'source of wisdom', the
'highest architect of the world'.
http://www.moup.org/Files/Rosicrucian-McIntosh.pdf

who knows?

-John

[Rosanne]

Hey peoples- this was my original premise for asking the question. I wanted to know if playing cards were a reduced Tarot deck or Tarot was a combined triumph series with playing cards added on. They look seperate no matter where they come from. Mamluk cards look like an esoteric system- because they are like prayer mats - a common man might say 4 prayers for wealth is your forfeit etc etc.(4 Denari)
When I was at school a Holy Picture was collectible. We made series to contemplate upon and played games with them as well. We had poker hands if you like. I still have mine stuck in a book now. I have twenty "Big" names (they follow a basic Tarot sequence)and four suits of two males and two females (40) cards in all. I have St Stephen dying in 10 different poses for example. I do not think I and my earnest Catholic girlfiriends were basically very different from girls and boys back in the middle ages except in the cash value; mine being mass produced, theirs being valuable as they would have been pasteboard etc and hard to come by unless your Uncle went on a pilgrimage. Where on earth did this idea come from? It seems it was a natural way to do things -thats all I think. We did not think it 'unholy' to play poker with them, or think it 'worldly' to meditate on the spiritual life of the illustrations- they were multi -purpose pretty cards (except when they were valuable because they were gory )
What is strange is that no matter which way the 4 suits are looked at either spiritually or worldly the meanings of each card is vastly different in Tarot or in playing cards as in Divination. One would think they had a cross over either way. PLaying cards seem Germanic/French and Tarot minors seem Eastern in image and thought. So I have this problem seeing them meshed- but not as seperate systems.
Fulgour- I enjoyed reading Webster too, but I would enjoy his "Is Your Dog Psychic" too, but I wanted some info as to how reliable his written word is. He is not New Zealand's most successful writer- Jane Mansfield is! I have loved the debate when I have understood it. ~Rosanne
Edited to add: The Edmonds cookbook is the most successful New Zealand printed matter lol.

[le pendu]

Moderator Note:

I've split the discussion on the Cary-Yale Visconti into a new thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=70236