extortion

Can you see the 6/Pents and Justice referring to extortion?

Justice carries the hint of punishment, the "or else"...and the 6/Pents is the "pay up". Make sense?

In a way, I get the 'credit where credit's due' impression from it, 6pent and justice is both about balance, and I could see it as a situation where the one compelled to give feels that it's unfair that they're the ones who have to give, but there's just no way around it... The end of a free ride so to speak.

So said in a different way; it makes much sense to me that it would feel like being extorted but the extortion would be from the necessity of it, not from unjustified demands.

TenOfSwords said:

In a way, I get the 'credit where credit's due' impression from it, 6pent and justice is both about balance, and I could see it as a situation where the one compelled to give feels that it's unfair that they're the ones who have to give, but there's just no way around it... The end of a free ride so to speak.

So said in a different way; it makes much sense to me that it would feel like being extorted but the extortion would be from the necessity of it, not from unjustified demands.

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I think it could be either...sure. Definitely about a "pay up" situation though.

JennyM said:

Can you see the 6/Pents and Justice referring to extortion?

Justice carries the hint of punishment, the "or else"...and the 6/Pents is the "pay up". Make sense?

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A man comes up to a store owner and says, "Pay me or I break all the windows in your store." That's a threat; it's not about giving money to someone who needs it (6/Pents) nor is it in ANY way about Justice--because nothing could be more injust than to steal (via threat) someone's hard-earned money because you don't want to do honest work yourself.

Likewise if you know someone's secret and will tell if they don't pay you, it's still a threat, not Justice. Even if the secret involves a crime, it's not Justice. The Justice card is about the Law, and a person doing that is taking the law into their own hands.

Reverse these cards and it might work. But upright? No. And I rather think that I still wouldn't interpet these that way reversed unless there was also something there to hint at the extorted person's particular situation. For example, 8/sword or 9/Swords perhaps to indicate entrapment and mental anguish. 5/Sword might indicate that threat of being beaten up ("Give me your lunch money" type of extortion).

And, of course, 7/Swords for theft, which extortion is. The person does not pay out the money willingly (6/pents) or because it is the law (Justice), they are being robbed at "gunpoint" (sic).

Thirteen said:

A man comes up to a store owner and says, "Pay me or I break all the windows in your store." That's a threat; it's not about giving money to someone who needs it (6/Pents) nor is it in ANY way about Justice--because nothing could be more injust than to steal (via threat) someone's hard-earned money because you don't want to do honest work yourself.

Likewise if you know someone's secret and will tell if they don't pay you, it's still a threat, not Justice. Even if the secret involves a crime, it's not Justice. The Justice card is about the Law, and a person doing that is taking the law into their own hands.
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Hmmm...OK. Well, I DID once get the 6/Pent though for a guy who was bribing the guy at the tax office to look the other way about something. He was giving money to someone who didn't need it in order to do something illegal.

How about...something threatening to go to the Law (Justice) if they don't get the money they think they deserve? (6/Pents)?

Giving Freely vs. Giving into Demands

JennyM said:

Hmmm...OK. Well, I DID once get the 6/Pent though for a guy who was bribing the guy at the tax office to look the other way about something. He was giving money to someone who didn't need it in order to do something illegal.

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That's different.

1) No Justice Card--Upright, the Justice card is pretty unforgiving about what's right and wrong. And that would certainly make it hard for bribery to be indicated with 6/Pents if the two were together in a reading. I'd probably say, in that case, that either the guy wouldn't take the bribe, or that it was going to be found out and someone was going to end up in front of a judge over it.

UNLESS, again, Justice was reversed. In which case I'd worry about someone bribing the judge.

6/Pents, however, has nothing to do with a moral or legal right/wrong. So on it's on, it can certainly indicate something illegal like bribery.

2) The man was GIVING the money to someone in order to bribe them. That's very different from our store owner. The store owner isn't trying to bribe the guy--he's scared out of is mind, again, being robbed at gunpoint.

6/Pents is perfectly right when it indicates GIVING money to someone FREELY and/or in hopes of getting something beneficial in return like a favor. It reminds me very much of the old Roman practice of "Patronage" where lower-middle class folk would have a rich patron. He woud give them financial support for their business, and they would give him their support, including votes, etc.

At it's best, 6/Pents indicates giving charity in hopes that you'll help someone and improve your karma. But it certainly can indicate any one who uses money to get special treatment or favors--slip money to the host of a restaurant to get the best table, for example. Give the bartender a fat tip and he takes care of you through the night. Or hand some money to an official to get paperwork through faster or look the other way.

That's all fine for 6/Pents. The money is given freely, in hopes of getting something desired in return. And maybe you won't get as good a table if you don't pay, but you WILL get a table. And you don't HAVE to fear for your life, livlihood or freedom if you can't pay. If you can't tip the bartender, you're not going to end up with your knees broken. That's the big difference.

Reverse 6/Pents and you would, IMHO, get extortion because then you get an indication of someone *taking* or *demanding* money rather than being given it for whatever reason.

How about...something threatening to go to the Law (Justice) if they don't get the money they think they deserve? (6/Pents)?

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Again, I'd need an extra card in there indicating that the person felt somehow pressured or trapped. Like 8/Swords. Damned if he does (cause he'll just have to keep paying), damned if he doesn't.

Thirteen said:

Reverse these cards and it might work. But upright? No.

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Depends on your reading method. If you are using elemental dignities (as opposed to using reversals) then you have the 6 pents (earth) clashing with Justice (air) and both cards are ill-dignified (essentially, you would read them as if they are both reversed)..... but only, if you are not using reversals in your readings.

-tb

Yea Thirteen... I just couldn't see Justice anywhere near extortion or blackmail, unless there was some other dubious, occluded card, perhaps Devil, Magician, Moon at their most negative or maybe even High Priestess... for things unseen or to be kept in the dark.

The 6 Pentacles doesn't always have to be fair... since it's usually about what one is willing to fork out or put up with to keep the status quo. So it could be a form of blackmail... pay up or be exposed or suffer the consequences, but it seems like there would be a 5 swords or 7 swords lurking around there somewhere rather than Justice... unless it were reversed... or negatively aspected in some way.

I suppose it could be interpreted this way when only using uprights & using your intuition and that is exactly what Jenny M. is doing.

six pentacles for me has to do generally with issues of having and not having, and with questions of fairness relating to those issues. the presence of (11) justice in some kind of proximity or relation to six pentacles may emphasize the questions of fairness and/or it may suggest a resolution of the having/not having issues (for example in a legal proceeding, though not necessarily). reversal or one or the other or both cards might require you to look behind the surfaces, but would not in itself imply blackmail, etc.

zb

Regarding the combination of 6-Pentacles & 11/8-Justice as 'extortion', definitely not & even if reversed (though may depend on the reader's own perceptions).

6-Pentacles an aspect or a shade of 6-The Lovers; hence ultimately pertains to choices arising from understanding or values; to relationships personal & other including the spiritual (as in self to Self) & the mundane realms (self to others). Within the 6-Pentacles & the 6 Major Arcana the echo of the karmic since the number 6 related to harmony & completeness. Where karma concerned, not actually of the retributive but as according to Cosmic Law, a natural system of checks & balances not limited to man's laws.

Justice pertains to balance, equality & fairness. Justice in its purest stance impartial & 'ungiving' in its clarity; however, not related to punishment per se.

If there was another card or other cards to refer to the will or an imposition of another's will/agenda, then possibly extortion or even embezzlement.

Such as 1-The Magician reversed to allude to the will. 15-The Devil which can be related to excess or greed; 5-Swords for conflict of interest; 7-Swords for the sneaky, the underhanded to thievery. Depending on the context, not limited to those cards.