Marseilles Lovers - Eve and Lilith?

[Simone]

Granted, there is no tree and no snake for the garden of Eden... but there are two women.

A dark one, looking a bit bitter, and a young blonde one.

Lilith, the wild woman, who got rejected because she refused to submit, is still thought of as the temptress, and how often have we seen a man leaving his homely, submissive wife for a more passionate one? And how many wild women have stayed the mistress because she was the place for fun but not for a home?

The young man on the image looks at the dark one, but his body is turned towards the younger one.

Is he going to commit to Eve but reluctant to leave Lilith behind?

Thoughts? Thanks!

[Simone]

There are myths that say Adam had two wives, Lilith and Eve, and that Lilith, for lack of submission was rejected.

If you go ferreting a bit, in the myths of Atlantis and Lemuria, there was mingling of genetic material to create man, and the first batch of women were not a success.

Could the angel represent those who came from the skies and separating out the first creation to favour the more submissive one?

After all, the arrow points to the blonde couple, to make them think they belong together, and not Lilith because she wanted to be equal...

[Fulgour]

Looking at "La Moureu" by Jean Dodal...
http://tarot-history.com/Jean-Dodal/pages/06.html

I have often wondered, what is it we are being shown,
what was the real "Cupid" figure designed to represent?

In later versions "Cupid" was made far less mysterious,
and I think the change lost more than it gained overall.

And too, how shall we "translate" the French title given
for this card, certainly not "The Lovers" as is done now.

[Simone]

Wow, Fulgour, thanks!

Those pictures indeed look a bit spacey, don't they! - Plus the light - spacecraft?

Hmmm, now I'm starting to get really fascinated!

Edited to add:

I have no clue what LA MOUREU might mean. Off to look around a bit to see if I find anything...

[Fulgour]

L'Amoureaux as L'Amour eaux
translates...
The Love Water

[jmd]

Though I personally see the imagery as more likely to be intent on depicting some kind of wedding (see the much earlier thread on VI L'AMOVREVX), from a perspective of reflection on the card, this choice between, again, two alternatives characterised as 'good and evil' is great.

In the argument presented by Simone, however, the 'good' is not so much good as submissive, and the 'bad' instead indicates someone who marches by their own drum or, to render the concepts differently, the difference between heresy (the etymology of the word refers to 'choice' or 'taking (of one's accord)') and orthodoxy ('straight thinking' or "true opinion"). What is interesting in regarding the women as Lilith and as Eve is that both have heretical streaks...

Will the young man than choose between established patterns of thinking that are considered 'straight and right, following societal values and opinion', or will he forge in the dangerous realms of heresy.

...or will he straggle that razor's edge between, on the one side, heresy, and on the other orthodoxy?

[Simone]

Thanks, Jean-Michel!

Somehow, I keep seeing the extraterrestrial in that Dodal card though - why would cupid wear a helmet if this was a wedding? (I now want that Jean Dodal deck! LOL!!! - Me!! who can't even own a Marseilles deck without giving it away within a short time, and then buying a new one only to repeat the action haha)

I'll try and get some decent links for what I meant in my earlier posts, I can't help feeling that un train en cache un autre...

[Simone]

fogive the heresy, but i doodled on the old card

[Fulgour]

Scholars who want neat answers prefer the game theory
which pleasantly places Tarot in their 15th century Italy.

You will be told that~ woodblock printing was required,
that a paper manufacturing industry was a prerequisite
along with the printing press. All of which is... absurd.

Tarot came from every direction at once and swept over
the western world like a breath of fresh air, the full deck.
Then came games and minchiates and various deviations.

The visconti "aberration" is an amateurish dauber's set...

[Gov]

Just by looking at it I'd say it was a young woman showing her new boyfriend to her mother.