Secret Pidgin Language-Medieval Lingua Franca

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

L'Imperatore is the letter D as an abcedarium.

The della rocca is post Gebelin, is his numbering of the fool 0 a Gebelin influence? If so, and if there is an alphabetic word play present, perhaps della rocca took the sequence backwards as Gebelin did, A with 21, b with 20, etc to last letter with fool. We cannot assume that it corresponds to the letter d and just look at d listings, until a specific ordering can be demonstrated.

[In polari, the secret language of English homosexuals whose vocabulary appears to be informed by rogues french; some words are actually just ordinary words spelt backwards, for example, ecaf = face, became shortened to eek. If we are implying a secret language, some sort of codification such as reversal may well be present.]

Kwaw

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

Hard currency a crown is though lol. ~Rosanne

So instead of the Emperor's head appearing on hard currency, he is wearing hard currency on his head

[Rosanne]

Now thats a code of reversals for sure
....and quite a funny thought oh and post Gebelin thoughts makes my brain go limp..er. I have no idea about the mindset of DellaRocca- I thought it was an interesting diversion to see if it could fit. Hmmm Il Bagattel's iconology seems to work with A, with out being forced....we will see..or at least I shall. I am always ready for an about ecaf
Oh I thought the M on Il matto might stand for maldicenza- its literal translation is ....wait for it......Backbiter. I might call my next dog that hehehe. ~Rosanne

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

Now thats a code of reversals for sure
Hmmm Il Bagattel's iconology seems to work with A, with out being forced....we will see..or at least I shall.

That may be so and is fine as far as playful diversions go - in terms of demonstrating an actual intended relationship however until an order has been demonstrated you would need to look at how well all letters may fit and see if there is a greater fit between one order than any other, and then work out if that one order is greater than what may be expected by chance.

batt = shoe; bevvy = drink (possibly an abbreviation of beverage); bijou = small [fitting in with meaning of bagatelle as a trifle or something small]; there is also Bossetto, a shoe-makers round BOT wood to sow his shoes upon, and Bot too of course being a shoe makers last.

Banco - a bench
Batt = shoe
Bosetta, bot wooden shoe last or patten
Bariletto - a pitcher or jug
Basola - a drinking glass
Bevvy - drink or Bebbe - he drank / drinks or Bibace - a drinker / drinking

So we have the bagetelle [cobbler] with a batt, bot or bosetta [wooden shoe last or patten] and a bariletto [jug or pitcher] on his banco [bench] and bebbe [he drinks] from a basola [drinking glass].

In reference to the letter M on the back of Matto, in Dictionnaire de la Langue Franque ou Petit Mauresque, suivi de quelques dialogues familiers (Marseilles, 1830). Mr. M is used in examples of dialogue. For example:

molto tempo ti non mirato Signor M.? Is it a long time since you saw Mr. M.?
mi andar in casa del Signor M. I am going to Mr. M.'s.

In Lingua Franca it may also 'mark' the pilgrim as being worth a mark or mu'ayyidi. The pilgrim [or in modern terms perhaps the newly arrived tourist in the bazaar] as the merchants' fresh fool or 'mark' that is easy money or target. Marqueta and maidin are two nominations of coin:

Benda ti istran plegrin:
benda, marqueta, maidin.

Give a benda you fresh pilgrim:
a benda, a mark or a mu'ayyidi.

Per marqueta e maydin dar
ovos haba per manjar
marqueta bayoco estar
dos bayocos un maydin.

For a mark and a mu'ayyidi they give
eggs and broad beans for a meal.
A mark is worth a bajocco,
A mu'ayyidi is worth two bajoccos.

The complete 16th century poem is in the text section here:

http://www.uwm.edu/~corre/franca/go.html

As Mark Filipas has pointed out the M as Mark may also allude to the hebrew letter Tau as meaning a 'mark' or sign. If a reversed sequence such as in Gebelin with Fool as Tau then Il Bagetelle = Sin/Shin and as well as a possible play between Sabato [shoe] and Sabato [sabbath, saturn, Saturday] we have a play on Sabataro a cobbler and Sabatio a drinker of barley wine [after he who is supposed to have invented sabacirio], also we have saba - both a type of wine and a secret mystery. Thereagain Sabbath or Sabbatai also means 'saturn' which is attributed to the letter beth in the oldest versions of the SY taking us from Sh/S back to B

Perhaps Matto indicates the cipher, not reverserd but start M. N. O . or M=A or [a=m] or ...

Kwaw

[Rosanne]

Le pendu asked for the Lingua Franca Thread- so I find all you say very interesting Kwaw and I have answered this in the other thread about my reasoning for an abcedarium of A for Aleph there. I feel the thread has been hijacked though and I am not sure what to do? ~Rosanne

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by le pendu

Thanks for posting this!

Ditto.

Here's the site that has a lot of information on this...
http://www.uwm.edu/~corre/franca/go.html

So, let's bring me crashing back down to earth. What can we learn about the Lingua Franca, and is there any chance that this language is somehow connected to tarot?

Thanx especially for this link, Robert. Already I see a series of meanings under B, for instance, that relate directly to the symbolic meaning of B-birch-5-LePape: bagno, 'bath', bene, 'well', bona, bono, bonu, bueno, bunu, buona, buono, 'good', and benedetto, 'blessed', and even perhaps bracciar, 'light' (related to braccio, 'arm'), relate to Pope's and birch's representing cleansing or blessing, whence bonacia, 'calm', and bonjorno, 'good morning', then there are 'beating', 'rod', and 'beat' (based on root baston-), as well as, brossa, 'brush', relate to birch being used as a switch on children and as witch's besom or broom (based on evil spirits caught in it when used as a switch), bianco, 'white' (birch's white bark and Pope's white barba or 'beard'), perhaps brillante, 'diamond', and of course the use of bitte- for Semitic beyt itself (through Arabic). Also, the Pope is an 'office', bureau or biru.

Related to D's or oak's meaning are: dar, dara, donar (oak-god Thor's German name), donnar, 'give', deffender, 'to defend' (being the oak-hero), and perhaps decidar, 'to decide', and defendir, 'to forbid', from D's being the gateway into manifestation (cancer's summer solstice, the horizon before), deti, detti, 'finger' (pointing to said horizon), devanti, 'in front of' (which is where said horizon is), dey, 'governor' (oak meaning sovereignty or compass), dimision, 'resignation' (the D-month being when the oak-king was sacrificed, that is, at the solstice), dio, dios, 'God' (sovereignty or royalty again), disperar, 'despair' (at oak-king's demise), distrito, 'strait' (D is 'door' in Hebrew and shaped like one in Tifinag writing, being the doorway into manifestation, the D-words meaning 'say' and 'declare' also signifying entrance into manifestation), perhaps dobitar, 'doubt' (the hero's self-doubt?), doble, dopiar, dopio, 'double' (since he is replaced in the oak-month by his twin, the holly-king), certainly dodici, 'twelve' -- D's bardic number -- dole and dolor, the 'aches' and 'pain' of sacrifice, domani, 'tomorrow' (the horizon before), dona, 'lady' (female counterpart of hero, showing nobility, sovereignty over oneself), .

and of course ancient early Hebrew beyt showed the mitre of the High Priest, which is a form of barretta or 'cap'.

(Ran out of time: will come back and edit tomorrow.)

[jmd]

This is of course all very interesting - and had not realised that the term 'Lingua Franca' was used as the proper name of the pidgin that was used by travellers and sailors of the region in late mediaeval times.

Quite frankly, when I looked at this some years ago, my reading came at a dead-end with the pidgin seemingly nothing more than common words used by the 'Franks' in their interaction amongst multi-lingual people, with some Jewish and Arabic words (or partial words) mixed in... it seems to have developed far more than I was aware of.

In terms of its relevance to Tarot - and of course further detailed research may lead to unexpected direction, it seems to me that there are a few distinct differences to the abecedarium presented by Mark Filipas, as well as other difficulties that have to be addressed.

The first (and clear distinction between this and Mark's presentation) is that Hebrew is considered a sacred language which, with Greek and Latin, formed the basis of a triune linguistic repertoire for languages of the sacred (Hebrew), learning (Greek), and legal and common communication amongst, by that stage, perhaps only the educated.

It would therefore make sense to have an abecedarium for any of those alphabets and languages, but not, it seems to me, for a pidgin that lacked those elements.

On the other hand, admittedly, card games by sailors and travellers seems to encourage its dissemination. IF that was the case, however, how to explain the apparent lack of tarot in northern Africa or, in the earliest times, in Spain and further afield?

The most difficult point that needs to be accounted for, however, is that, unless only 22 letters are considered in Lingua Franca, how to account for the discrepancy of the then 24 Latin letters and the 22 cards (if, again, we are considering this as some kind of lingua Franca abecedarium). I realise that Ross has also mentioned (in another thread) the possibility of reconciling the Latin to the 22 of the Hebrew alphabet. Nonetheless, this seems to me to be an element that is very problematic as currently presented.

Then there is the other emerging 'problem' as to why most areas of production and distribution occur in non-port towns (apart from Marseille, of course, and to a lesser extent Genoa and Venice): what to make of Besançon, Lyon, Paris, Milan, Avignon, Shaffhouse? And why the equivalent absence from Barcelona, and various important port towns further afield?

Of course this CAN be explained by distribution factors. What we would expect to find, however, is there mention and occurance in a far broader domain than currently appears the case.

Thirdly, and this I have not checked in the linked dictionary, is there a mention of this deck as either game or other? Does the word (or words) for cards (which is bound to be included) point to a deck that is clearly distinct?

As I mention above, of course, I find any opening for further research exciting and fascinating. In this case, however, and despite looking forward to others' finds and reflections, it seems to run against the development of finds and summaries that appear to have emerged (perhaps to be rectified by this field yet to yield new directions, of course).

[Rosanne]

I have the Lo Scarabeo DellaRocca reproduction called the Classic Tarot, and the LWB that comes with the deck is a little strange. It says that 1 - The Fool and 0 - The Madman. Now the card 1 is called Il Bagattel and keyword is 'Will' and the no numbered card that I would have called the Fool - Il Matto, keyword Strangeness would seem to be the Madman. In another thread Myrrha asked why Il Bagattel is holding a glass of wine.
Tarot is about images and whilst I was looking at it, I saw some lexicography that associated it, in Italian with the letter A- Aleph- and alongside I saw, what I would call polari, but more accurately Lingua Franca associations.
I do not know the history of the DellaRocca deck, but I wondered if this secret pidgin or trade speak LF was used in this deck. I have no other reproductions to see if they are not numbered originally or have titles for that matter.
I ask when looking at a card, "What is the designer trying to tell me?"
Il Bagattel looks like it is saying in LF..down tools it is Sunday and I can tell you lies and be a salesMAN... but in Italian it seems to be a Abcedarium. I find it interesting and curious and was wondering if both ideas could run alongside each other in This Deck~Rosanne

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by jmd

Thirdly, and this I have not checked in the linked dictionary, is there a mention of this deck as either game or other? Does the word (or words) for cards (which is bound to be included) point to a deck that is clearly distinct?

A Sabir [ligua franca] term for playing cards = Qaoualchpata? [pronounce that!]

Qaoualchpata (=Niais, venant probablement des Cartes de jeu Napolitaines) from:

"Selon les estimations de Mac Carthy -Varnier et d’Elisée Reclus le Glossaire du Sabìr, riche de plus de 2000 locutions avant 1830, s’était borné a quelques 200 mots entre 1852 et 1887, alors qu’un million d’habitants en Algérie comprenait déjà le Français. L’ultime épanouissement de ce vernacle date des années 50 avec les transmissions radio d’Eugène Edmond Martin depuis Tunis, ayant pour titre ‘Les Sabirs de Qaddour bin Nitram’. Pourtant Mouaily al Mohsen , rechercheur linguistique Tunisien et interprète judiciaire auprès du Tribunal de Milan a pu documenter au moin 150 termes surséants parmi lesquels b’l jornata (=ouvriers journaliers ) Mechqito (=mischiato, contrefait) Qaoualchpata (=Niais, venant probablement des Cartes de jeu Napolitaines) et Sabbàt (=Zapatos) encore utilisé a Sousse, avec Sbadni (=espadrilles) pour les souliers de tennis, qui deviennent Sbadina au Maroc, mais Calsin en Egypte."

End quote from
http://www.uwm.edu/~corre/franca/edi...lessiecles.htm

Can someone who speaks french clarify the above passage…if I read it properly it is saying that Mouaily Al Mohsen, Tunisian linguistic research worker and legal interpreter at the Court of Milan documents 150 terms among which are b' L jornata (= daily hired laborer) Mechqito (= mischiato, counterfeits) Qaoualchpata (= Niais, probably derived from Neapolitan playing cards) and Sabbàt (= Zapatos) still used by Sousse, with Sbadni (= espadrilles) for tennis shoes, which become Sbadina in Morocco, but Calsin in Egypt.

Kwaw

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by kwaw

Can someone who speaks french clarify the above passage…if I read it properly it is saying that Mouaily Al Mohsen, Tunisian linguistic research worker and legal interpreter at the Court of Milan documents 150 terms among which are b' L jornata (= daily hired laborer) Mechqito (= mischiato, counterfeits) Qaoualchpata (= Niais, probably derived from Neapolitan playing cards) and Sabbàt (= Zapatos) still used by Sousse, with Sbadni (= espadrilles) for tennis shoes, which become Sbadina in Morocco, but Calsin in Egypt.

Kwaw

Found this:
Quote:
The same happens in Tunisia. (Instances kindly provided by Dr. Mouaily al Mohsen, a Tunisian scholar and legal interpreter based in Milan, include 'meshkito' ('forged,' from 'mischiato'); daily paid workers are hired 'b'ljornata' and simple minded folks are called 'qawalshpata' probably from an old Neapolitan playing card) and I know for a fact that a creole occurs in the Aegean Islands.

From
http://www.uwm.edu/~corre/franca/edi....html#glossary

qawalshpata - simple minded folks, derived from name of an old Neopolitan playing card?

Kwaw