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Is The Planet Order Really a Mess?
I have read often that the Planet order of Golden Dawn does not fit in the sequence of 22 properly. I have been trying to work out if I can can see why it is OK. I think it is about colour. Lets see if I can explain, without boring everyone to tears, what I mean. Seven Planets, Seven colours to the rainbow, Chaldean order, Alchemical order and colours on the Rosy Cross lamen. Rainbow Red.......Mars Orange..Sun Yellow...Mercury Green....Venus Blue.......Moon Indigo....Saturn Violet.....Jupiter. On the Rosy Cross the colours run anticlockwise from the top in the rainbow order. The Chaldean order goes Saturn, Jupiter,Mars,Sun,Venus,Mercury and Moon. The Alchemical order goes Mercury, Saturn, Jupiter, Moon, Venus, Mars and Sun. The Golden Dawn goes Mercury-Moon-Venus-Jupiter-Mars-Sun and Saturn. The Magician-Mercury-Yellow -I am The High Priestess-Moon-Blue -I think The Empress-Venus-Green (yellow+Blue)-I create Wheel Of Fortune-Jupiter- Violet - Therefore things change The Tower-Mars-Red- I am transformed The Sun-Sun-Orange- I have achieved The World-Saturn-Indigo- This is what I wanted- completion. In one of the Golden Dawn grades called I think the Flying Roll XV11 the Seven sides- The person stands with Violet at their left hand and Red at their right looking towards the east at Venus- so I put the seven colours on the seven pointed star and it all looked fine to me........ so can someone tell me why everyone gets upset at this Golden Dawn Planetary Order? ~Rosanne
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How happy is he born and taught, That serveth not another's will; Whose armour is his honest thought, And simple truth his utmost skill! Sir Henry Wotton |
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I am not convinced that Tree of Life is connected to Tarot, but conversely agree that TdM has a Judaic(Original Christianity) origin of a pattern of ideas as an aid to memory. So along comes the Golden Dawn whose members, namely Waite,Mathers,Crowley rectify the Tarot packs of those before- Court de Gebelin (What Tarot deck did he see used?)-Etteilla- Levi (who was the first to slot the whole of Tarot into the Quaballa); yet rectified again by Oswald Wirth, then Papus. Now it is a given that Golden Dawn in regards to Tarot was strongly influenced by Levi- there is also the amalgamation of other disciplines like alchemy and visionary experience. I am wondering if this visionary experience had a greater influence than I have found discussed. I for example see Mercury the Planet in the Card Judgement, more easily than I do in The Magician- except in meditation of the colours of planets and cards- I can see Mercury as the Magician then. So it leaves me wondering if the Path 2 on the Tree and that argument is misplaced. Can someone enlighten me? ~Rosanne
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How happy is he born and taught, That serveth not another's will; Whose armour is his honest thought, And simple truth his utmost skill! Sir Henry Wotton Last edited by Rosanne : 29-03-2007 at 20:00. |
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Well Roseanne, I cannot enlighten you because I am still on the path myself, , but I wonder where the Earth is in all of this?I don't want to take your thread off topic, but is it because we are on the Earth that it doesn't show up in the list? This is new stuff to me, so I figured since the discussion hadn't really started yet I would come over and ask my ignorant questions. And, I'm not afraid of you! You nice lady.
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“Serenity is not freedom from the storm, but peace amid the storm.” The Gaia Shop Get Your Goddess On! (elf) |
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You are absolutely right Satori, the Earth isn't there because we are on it. In the old system, the Earth was considered the centre of the Universe, and it did not move. It wasn't a planet. Planet means "wanderer." Up in the sky there were objects that moved - the seven planets - but Earth was fixed, immovable. The Sun went around US - and so did the Stars. Roseanne - Quote:
Who do you mean that gets upset? All of those orders are different - there's even another one (not to confuse you further) - the days of the week! Sun-Moon-Mars-Mercury-Jupiter-Venus-Saturn. Then there's one closer to home (esoterically), the Sefer Yetzirah - Beth-Moon Gimel-Mars Daleth-Sun Caph-Venus Peh-Mercury Resh-Saturn Tav-Jupiter The GD didn't use this one, but they used the Sefer Yetzirah's Zodiac attributions. Go figure. This is not to dismiss it as naive, Moon-Gimel-Priestess makes sense, as does Beth-Mercury-Magician. The others do to, according to their own logic. I wouldn't hang up on it - just try to figure out the logic behind each one, and go with it. Ross
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When the student is ready, the teacher will disappear. Trionfi http://trionfi.com Tarot Essays http://www.angelfire.com/space/tarot |
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A little note to remember, The three outer planets (Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto) were rediscovered during the time of the GD, hence that caused the change in the planetary correspondences. The older continental correspondences never took these into account as they didn't "exist" back then. Hence that's one of the many reasons why there is a significant change in attributions, especially planetary ones.
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Stop callin', stop callin', I don't wanna think anymore! I left my head and my heart on the dance floor. Stop callin'', stop callin, I don't wanna talk anymore! I left my head and my heart on the dance floor. |
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[Whispered:] (He's here . . .) Quote:
Hence it would more likely be the courage or martial discipline that is required to see one's initial blackened state and allows transformation to take place, which must then be 'relaxed' to accomplish true reflection, it being Venus/copper that does the 'relaxing' (the warrior in us softened by love, so to speak), which is then hardened to a happy medium by Jupiter/tin: the upshot of this would be the bronze of statues (perhaps explaining the legend of the golem as having originated in a metaphor concerning statuary). Quote:
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G.K. Spain, poet-fiddler and inadvertant thread-killer who now mostly just lurks and learns. Last edited by venicebard : 04-04-2007 at 13:16. |
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Surely you agree that the Tree in Asiyah or Coins delineates the temporal spectrum as eternity, great year, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, year, Venus, Mercury, month, day ('day' meaning today, the fleeting present instant)? Quote:
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Sorry to roil the waters (just bored, I guess). Cheeryo.
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G.K. Spain, poet-fiddler and inadvertant thread-killer who now mostly just lurks and learns. |
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The oldest form of the Sepher Yetzirah did not specify which planets went with which letters - hence all the confusion and variations given since then. Mary |
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This leaves fire (the radiant layer, stellar mechanics being a matter mediated by electromagnetic forces, sayeth plasma cosmology, not gravitational, as is generally and naively believed) to act on air-water-and-earth via a single number (whereas 10 has the rest of number as its field, being the start of the numerological repeating of the 1/2/3/4/-4/-3/-2/-1/-0 pattern ad infinitum). As fire, it does act in a unified way (all energy being defined globally, not locally, as it is based on the system of which it is part). But as soon as things progress beyond 1's unity into the actual elements acted upon, meaning once unmanifested air is reached, we would expect three nodes to appear as the result of fire's activity, to act as channels of said influence just as all the other influences have their channels. The only difference (which I just now realized, while explaining this) is that each of these three are single planets (as befits fire's unity), while the rest flow from one planet to another. I hope I've expressed thiings clearly enough. If not, bug me about it and I'll respond. (The reasoning behind the above dynamic structure for instance, omitted for brevity, can be explained should anyone here be interested in its origin).
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G.K. Spain, poet-fiddler and inadvertant thread-killer who now mostly just lurks and learns. |
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We may I suppose reconstruct a speculative 'earliest recoverable text' as done for example by Peter Hayman, "identifying the textual material that all three recensions have in common - the lowest common denominator", that does not include reference to which planets go with which letters (because the majority of short version recensions do not include such). However, there are three extent recensions, known as the Short, the Long and the saadia, that have been recognised since the 10th century. There is an extent 10th century manuscript of the long version [Vatican Library (Cat. Assemani)299(8), fols.66a-71 b), the 1263 Baghdad copy of the Saadia Gaons text and commentary originally written in 931 [Oxford, Bodleian Library Pococke 256 (Cat. Neubauer 1533)] was the oldest extent copy of the Saadia known until the discovery in the 20th century of the 10/11th century copy of the same [The Geniza Scroll, Cambridge University Library, Taylor-Schechter K21/56 + Glass 32/5 + Glass 12/813]. These are the oldest extent manuscript copies of the Long and Saadia recensions and include the attributions of the double letters to the planets in chaldean order. While the letter to planet attribution is not present in most extent short versions the order as infered from para 62 [Hayman] is also extent in at least two short version manuscripts, including the oldest extent [Param 2784.14 (Bibliotheca Palatina 2784/14). De Rossi 1390, fols.36b-38b. 1286]. Manuscripts 'A', 'C', 'Z' and 'K' in Hayman. Sefer Yesira : 41 [Gruenwald] Saadia [Manuscripts C and Z Hayman]: 1 He made Bet King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Saturn in the universe, the Sabbath in the year, and the mouth in the soul. 2 He made Gimel King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Jupiter in the universe, Sunday in the year, and the right eye of the soul. 3. He made Dalet King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Mars in the universe, Monday in the year, and the left eye of the soul. 4. He made Kaf King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Sun in the universe, Tuesday in the year, and the right nostril of the soul. 5. He made Peh King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Venus in the universe, Wednesday in the year, and the left nostril of the soul. 6. He made Resh King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Mercury in the universe, Thursday in the year, and the right ear of the soul. 7. He made Tav King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Moon in the universe, Friday in the year, and the left ear of the soul. Long [Manuscript A Hayman] 1 He made Bet King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Saturn in the universe, the Sabbath in the year, and the mouth in the soul. 2 He made Gimel King and bound to it a crown and combined one with another, and formed of it: Jupiter in the universe, Sunday in the year, and the right eye of the soul. 3. He made Dalet King and bound to it a crown, and formed of it: Mars in the universe, Monday in the year, and the left eye of the soul. 4. He made Kaf King and bound to it a crown, and formed of it: Sun in the universe, Tuesday in the year, and the right nostril of the soul. 5. He made Peh King and bound to it a crown, and formed of it: Venus in the universe, Wednesday in the year, and the left nostril of the soul. 6. He made Resh King and bound to it a crown, and formed of it: Mercury in the universe, Thursday in the year, and the right ear of the soul. 7. He made Tav King and bound to it a crown, and formed of it: Moon in the universe, Friday in the year, and the left ear of the soul. Sefer Yesirah : 62 [Gruenwald] Manuscript K [Hayman] Short recension {does not appear in majority of short version manuscripts, but does in this the earliest extent manuscript of the short recension}: 2: Saturn, Sabbath, the mouth. --- Jupiter, Sunday, right eye. --- Mars, Monday, left eye. --- The Sun, Tuesday, right nostril. --- Venus, Wednesday, left nostril. --- Mercury, Thursday, right ear. ---Moon, Friday, left ear: these are Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh, Resh and Tav. Manuscript A [Hayman] Long recension: Saturn, Sabbath, the mouth. --- Jupiter, Sunday, right eye. --- Mars, Monday, left eye. --- The Sun, Tuesday, right nostril. --- Venus, Wednesday, left nostril. --- Mercury, Thursday, right ear. ---Moon, Friday, left ear: these are Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh, Resh and Tav. Manuscript C [Hayman] Saadia recension Saturn, Sabbath, the mouth. --- Jupiter, Sunday, right eye. --- Mars, Monday, left eye. --- The Sun, Tuesday, right nostril. --- Venus, Wednesday, left nostril. --- Mercury, Thursday, right ear. ---Moon, Friday, left ear: these are Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh, Resh and Tav. The earliest extent manuscripts of the SY in all three recensions therefore do in fact include planet to letter attributions, and they are in the Chaldean order. Kwaw ref: Peter Hayman Sefer Yesira 2004 Mohr Siebeck, Tubingen, Germany.
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"I am a diviner, but a poor one." Last edited by kwaw : 18-04-2007 at 18:56. |
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