[Rosanne]

Well VeniceBard, I should have been careful about what I wished for . I really do not know what to say.
It seems to me, somewhat like my thoughts on the Phoenician alphabet/Almanac/Abjad- not really Tarot at all, but great to consider. There seems to be so many 'blinds' uncovered by your order, that I wonder if the code of Tarot would have been used at all to describe Man and our place in the Universe.
The seven double letters, I understand from a phoenetic point of view, but being the cauldron in your list I would have thought them to be Feminine/negative signs- but no consideration given to 'it' being a woman's mouth lol.
Lets see if I can give a planet to your cauldron signs? To have a blind you need a cover. Forgive my presumption of taking the ruling planet of the sign.
D XII Hanged Man dalet cancer-of-Cauldron (horizon without) MOON
T XI Force tav leo-of-Cauldron SUN
K VIIII Hermit kaf virgo-of-Cauldron MERCURY
R XV Devil reysh libra-of-Cauldron VENUS
G X Fortune gimel scorpio-of-Cauldron MARS ????
P VII Chariot peh sagittary-of-CauldronJUPITER
B V Pope beyt capricorn-of-Cauldron (horizon within)SATURN
See what I mean? it does not seem like Tarot- it looks like an artificial fit even though the planets are in an order that is recognisable. I thank you for all your trouble and I will consider more your list. ~Rosanne

[venicebard]

Edited to delete, as imperfect duplicate of post below.

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

Well VeniceBard, I should have been careful about what I wished for . I really do not know what to say.
It seems to me, somewhat like my thoughts on the Phoenician alphabet/Almanac/Abjad- not really Tarot at all, but great to consider. There seems to be so many 'blinds' uncovered by your order, that I wonder if the code of Tarot would have been used at all to describe Man and our place in the Universe.

You must understand: the bardic correlations are the tip of a much larger iceberg, one whose consistency and power-to-explain trump provincial or insular concerns about whether it is 'purely Jewish' or 'purely Keltic': the tree whence Hebrew and Keltic traditions branched didn't care! (a bold-faced ! is my way of saying "d--n it!" good-naturedly, of course). But the main argument for my way is that here we have a system of numbers-attached-to-letters that is concurrent with the times in which British bardic lore (Arthur, Tristan) and Judaic 'mysticism' cross-pollenated each other in Provence-Languedoc (to produce Qabbalah and, later, tarot, if I am right) . . . and one that is based directly on symbolism (seemingly dating back at least to the spelling of Apollo's name, since by these numbers it conveys the 13-month calendar, being 1-7-4-14-14-?-13 [? = omega, whose number is not given, if it had one]). For I-idho-yew-(zayin)-Empress is three because she is the threefold mystery of death/water, the third phase/element of life. And B-beth-birch-(beyt)-Pope-[blessing] is five because it represents birth, being the first tree-month (starting at capricorn), which is when you count the digits on each hand and foot (that's why on the Marseilles you see a mother's arm introducing her two little charges). And so on.

The seven double letters, I understand from a phoenetic point of view, but being the cauldron in your list I would have thought them to be Feminine/negative signs- but no consideration given to 'it' being a woman's mouth lol.

I hope you were serious with your lols (lol): what, men don't have mouths? are you daft? [Also, the first comma in your first sentence above is unnecessary, nay incorrect (dare I say good-naturedly).]

Lets see if I can give a planet to your cauldron signs? To have a blind you need a cover. Forgive my presumption of taking the ruling planet of the sign.
D XII Hanged Man dalet cancer-of-Cauldron (horizon without) MOON
T XI Force tav leo-of-Cauldron SUN
K VIIII Hermit kaf virgo-of-Cauldron MERCURY
R XV Devil reysh libra-of-Cauldron VENUS
G X Fortune gimel scorpio-of-Cauldron MARS ????
P VII Chariot peh sagittary-of-CauldronJUPITER
B V Pope beyt capricorn-of-Cauldron (horizon within)SATURN

You are perfectly free to do so. Dalet, which now resides at cancer, was originally, in primordial Upright Sentience or Adam Qadmon (before the Fall or Lurianic 'breaking of vessels'), the sign sagittary: duir-the-oak is Jupiter's (Thor/Thunar's, Taranis's, Zeus's, and physically lightning's) tree. Sagittary means thought, and D-oak (wood of dalet/door) is now attached to outside objects (hypnosis by the senses), as represented by its adherence to the outer lip or rim of the Cauldron or mouth. This simultaneously pulls man's concept of the outer rim away from what it actually is (the outer rim itself) over to thought, a concept of it that is no longer consistent with it.

This would place P at cancer/moon, to which you would most likely get no argument from Keridwen or Bridgit either one, goddesses who once 'owned' said Cauldron. (Perhaps the Dagda's ownership of it coincided with D's swinging across to cancer to encompass (which is what oaks do) the whole. Or maybe not.

I believe I ended my own speculations on the matter (so far) with:

D XII Hanged Man dalet cancer JUPITER (being where he is 'exalted').
T XI Force tav leo SUN.
K VIIII Hermit kaf virgo MERCURY.
R XV Devil reysh libra VENUS
G X Fortune gimel scorpio MOON (being the sign that 'rules' cancer via the earth triad [alias astrological and common water]
P VII Chariot peh sagittary SATURN (being the floor of the Saturn/lead column in the vessel/zodiac, the column just crossed when reaching capricorn, which it thus rules): F-fearn-alder is the tree of Bran/Vran, the Keltic Kronos, and it is essentially feh-sofit (peh's final form).
B V Pope beyt capricorn MARS (being where he is exalted).

So we agree on T, K, and R: these perhaps conform to their ruling planets because they are on the passive or outer side of the Cauldron (being unvoiced, as you will notice even the repeated stops of R rolled on tip of tongue are, though these stops when R is gutturally rolled seem to be voiced [first time I noticed this!]).

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by venicebard

All in all your peh-Venus connexion is rather strong, I think, albeit I would point to a different trump of course.

Quote from Zohar (Bold and Italic emphasis mine):

88. "And he fell on his brother Binyamin's neck and wept; and Binyamin wept on his neck..." Rabbi Yitzchak said: It has been already explained that he wept for the first Temple and for the second Temple--THAT WILL BE BUILT ON BINYAMIN'S PORTION AND BE DESTROYED.

89. He opened the discussion with the verse, "Your neck is like the Tower of David built with turrets, on which there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men" (Shir Hashirim 4:4). HE ASKS: What is the "Tower of David?" It is the Tower of David IN JERUSALEM that was built by David, NAMELY, THAT STANDS inside Jerusalem. Yet "the Tower of David" IN THE SCRIPTURE IS NOT THIS "TOWER OF DAVID," BUT is the celestial Jerusalem--NAMELY, THE NUKVA--about which it is written, "The name of Hashem is a strong tower: the righteous runs into it, and is set up on high" (Mishlei 18:10). HE ASKS: Who "is set up on high"-THE RIGHTEOUS OR THE TOWER? HE ANSWERS: the tower is, for into it the righteous (YESOD) runs.

90. "Your neck" is the Lower Temple, WHICH RESEMBLES THE TOWER OF DAVID, WHICH IS THE NUKVA AND IS SO CALLED because it is beautifully built, like the neck. As the neck symbolizes the beauty of the whole body, so the Temple symbolizes the beauty of the whole world.

91. The phrase, "built with turrets (Heb. talpiot)" means a hill on which all the children of the world look TO PRAISE AND TO PRAY. It has been explained that the word 'talpiot' consists of the letters Tel-Piot (lit. 'a mound of mouths'). It is a mound which all the mouths of the world praise and pray.

92. The phrase, "on which there hang a thousand bucklers", (ibid.) refers to the thousand reconstructions fixed upon it, THAT IS, ON THE ILLUMINATION OF CHOCHMAH HINTED AT BY THE NUMBER ONE THOUSAND. AND "all shields of mighty men" are called thus because they come from the side of harsh judgment.

93. As all a woman's jewels hang round her neck, so do all ornaments of the world hang about and dwell within the Temple. It has already been explained that the verse, "We are pursued to our necks" (Eichah 5:5) alludes to the Temple, which is the neck and beauty of the world. "We are pursued to our necks; WE LABOR, AND HAVE NO REST," that labored building it twice-THE FIRST TEMPLE AND THE SECOND TEMPLE-"and have no rest," for we were not allowed any. The Temples were destroyed and not rebuilt.

94. As when the neck is destroyed the whole body perishes, when the Temple was destroyed and darkened, the whole world became dark too, and the sun, heaven, earth, and stars did not shine.

95. For that reason-FOR THE TWO TEMPLES THAT WERE DESTROYED-Yosef cried. After he wept for this, he wept for the tribes that went into exile. For shortly after the Temple was destroyed, all the tribes were sent into exile and dispersed among the nations, as it is written, "And he kissed all his brethren, and wept on them," meaning, on account of their GOING INTO EXILE.

96. He wept for everything-for the Temple that was twice destroyed and for his brothers, the ten tribes, who went into exile and were scattered among the nations. "...and after that his brethren talked with him," not 'wept'. He wept because HE SAW the Holy Spirit come upon him; but they did not weep, because the Holy Spirit did not dwell upon them--THEY DID NOT SEE IT.

End quote from:
Vayigash 9 in Volume 6 of The Zohar The First Complete Unabridged English Translation with Commentary Rabbi Yehuda Bar Yochai; Rabbi Ashlag Yehuda (commentary) in 23 Volumes (Kabbalah Centre International, 2003).

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by kwaw

91. The phrase, "built with turrets (Heb. talpiot)" means a hill on which all the children of the world look TO PRAISE AND TO PRAY. It has been explained that the word 'talpiot' consists of the letters Tel-Piot (lit. 'a mound of mouths'). It is a mound which all the mouths of the world praise and pray.

ThL {Tau Lamed of ThLPhYVTh turrets} translated 'mounds here, in biblical hebrew is found as a ‘mound’ as in the heaps of ruined cities, for example:

De 13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

Jos 8:28 And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day.

Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold,I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwelling places; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

Jer 49:2 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, thatI will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.

ThLPhYH from Song of Songs 4:4, interpreted here as turrets is, according to Brown-Driver-Briggs [strong number H8530 TLFYH], from an unused root meaning ‘to tower’, it is translated in the KJV as ‘armoury’:

O 4:4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.
In NAS as ‘rows of stones’:
So 4:4 "Your neck is like the tower of David, Built with rows of stones On which are hung a thousand shields, All the round shields of the mighty men.”

The Hebrew Study Bible Tanakh translation notes the hebrew is uncertain but apparently a poetic figure for jewelry, the imagery being of a long neck adorned with necklaces, and translates it:

“Your neck is like the Tower of David,
Built to hold weapons,
Hung with a thousand shields-
All the quivers of warriors.”

It also notes that this is the only place in the Bible in which the Tower of David is mentioned, that it is not identical with the Tower of the same name in modern Jerusalem.

Kwaw

[kwaw]

As well as 'mouths' PhYVTh means 'edges' of blades suchs as knives, daggers, swords a connection again with 'cutting'; the connection with 'word' and 'circumcision' is reiterated and is reflected in the apparent phallic symbolism of the card. The 'necklace', among other things, may refer to the ring of circumcised flesh.

The 'bride' is Nukva, Malkuth, a title of which is Aterah, which means both crown and also the glans of the circumcised penis. A variation on the theme is alluded to in the Ace of Swords.

As circumcision is a 'mark' of Jewish identity so the card should be placed on the right side of the tree [the side of the Jews according to the Zohar]; I place it between Netzach and Chesed [opposite the Sun that I place beteen Hod and Din, on the left side of the 'foreigner' as alluded to with Ra [left side and the Sun] with Romulus and Remus, Egyptians and Romans]; which also fits it with the venusian and jupiterian symbolism.

Kwaw

[Hythlodaeus]

Originally Posted by kwaw

Since the late 19th century the attributions of the Gra [18th century] have become the standard in Jewish Kabbalah:

Beit - Moon
Gimel - Mars
Daleth - Sun
Kaph - Venus
Peh - Mercury
Resh - Saturn
Tau - Jupiter

These are the attributions used in some 20th century Spanish decks, making them as far as I am aware the only ones to correspond to any actual redaction of the SY, albeit a late one.

Kwaw

The most common variant I've seen on Continental decks is:

Beit - Moon
Gimel - Venus
Daleth - Jupiter
Kaph - Mars
Peh - Mercury
Resh - Saturn
Tau - Sun

Two pairs of planets, Mars/Venus and Jupiter/Sun are switched. According to Christine Payne-Towler, "Remember, there is no difference between the Hebrew and the Pythagorean correspondences in the case of the letters that represent signs of the zodiac. The only difference was between two pairs of planets, the pair Jupiter/Sun and the pair Venus/Mars. One pattern represents the Semitic origins of the alphanumeric pattern and the other is a Greek "reform" undertaken in the sixth century BC."

Payne-Towler refers to this reform as the "Alexandrian synthesis," but she doesn't go into greater detail about why these pairs were switched. I wondered if anyone could shed more light on this subject...