Visually Looking for the Planets in TdM [Marseille]

[Rosanne]

I am trying to find visual groupings in the TdM- especially groups of 7- to find for sure the Cards that visually show a relationship to them (Planets)
I have found that 6 Cards are definitively on thrones
11, 111, 1V, V, V11, V11
Moon, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Saturn, Jupiter and the Sun
1 card that maybe (Le Diable) is throned? and he looks more like the Chariot than L'amore/Lovers to me. Is Le Diable the Sun?
2 cards that have no Humans on them La Lune/Moon and La Roue/WOF (Solar and Lunar Calendars?)
7 Cards that are single figures 0, 1, 1X, X1, X11, X1V, XV11
5 Cards with multiple figures V1, XV, XV1, XX, X1X and maybe XX1 although La Monde is more like a single figure.
2 Cards that tradition has unnumbered Le Fou 0 and La Mort X111 although they are single figures.

So astrologically or astronomically what does this tell me?
0, 1, X111, XX1 are the elements?
V1, XV1, XX, X1X are the equinoxs and solstices ?Spring X1, Summer X1X, Fall XV1, Winter XX
add in the calendar cards X and XV111(who turn the seasons)
add in single figure cards not on thrones 1X, X1, X11, X1V, XV11, XX1 Now thats 12 the seasons/Zodiac/Months?
Now that I have addled your brains- who is XV Le Diable? The Planet Sun? Is he on a throne Standing or is he Zodiac/Month?
Any thoughts? ~Rosanne

[le pendu]

I have to wonder how much is really there and how much are we placing on top of the iconography?

Isn't it odd that we would be looking for "the sun" and "the moon" and not looking at The Sun and The Moon?

What real reason do we have for say.. associating the Popess and the moon? or the Empress and venus?

I'd personally suggest something like this...
Sun = Sun
Moon = Moon
Mercury = ?
Venus = Lovers
Mars = Chariot
Saturn = Hermit
Jupiter = Emperor

Maybe I'm just taking things at face value.

[Rosanne]

Yes I wonder that to Robert. That is why I said 'visually'
Why not the Chariot as Mercury who whizzes across the face of the Sun?
Why not The Star as Venus?
Things like that! - All the single figures as months?(12 is excluding Death and Star)
Visually that makes more sense to me. Then you have 10 left 3 elements + 7 Planets.
The Sun
The Moon
The Star (Venus? )
The Lovers (Venus?)
The World (Water Earth?)
Death (Earth)
Devil (Fire )
Judgement (Air, Fire, ?)
Wheel (Saturn?)
Mars as the Tower?
That sort of thinking visually. ~Rosanne

[Ayumi]

Nice systematic approach to the 'planets' problem Rosanne.

It is good to see more and more people are starting to question Waites 'wonky' astrological correspondences.

My father was a practitioner of both traditional Japanese and Chinese astrological divination. (They are similar but slightly different,, kind of like Greco/Roman/Arabian astrology vs. Vedic astrology) He taught me these when I was a kid. I later studied Modern Western astrology, but wasn't impressed. I later found my way to Traditional Western astrology through the writings of John Frawley. I give people who want a reading a choice of Japanese or Traditional Western (Greco/Roman/Arabian). I've only been into Tarot for a couple of years. Anyway, as you can see, my background in various astrologies makes this a fascinating issue for me.


Here are some things I like to keep in mind when meditating on the planets and the Tarot.


* If there is any 'astrological' symbolism in the Tarot, it would be based on the astrology of that time and not this time, so no Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. The silly idea that the creators of Tarot were so 'enlightened' that they predicted the outer planets or the modern periodic table of the elements is best left to the children of Atlantis to discuss with Big-foot when Our Lord and Savior, Elvis picks them up in his spaceship.

* That said, really knowing the commonly held views about the planets, signs, elements during that time is essential. This is easy. Read William Lilly's Christian Astrology. The reason Lilly is recommended, is not because he is the most famous or most original or most illuminated, but because he present the most common view. Lilly had one of the greatest collections of books on mysticism of his time, and his talent was not the egotistical act of innovation, but in presenting the whole history and method of astrology in a way the common person could understand.

* Ideas like the signs of the zodiac being neither things, nor states, nor even characteristics, but places where the planets dwell is so important. The modern view of zodiac signs having personalities didn't exist until the 19th century.

* The idea of the 12 houses as something separate and different than the 'celestial' houses, the 12 zodiac signs, is useful.

* Other more specific things, for example, Venus ruling nuns and virgins (Papesse) and Luna ruling Queens and Empresses (L' Imperatrice) is useful.

* The common medieval representations of the planets and their "children" in pictures and verse shows us many of the common associations of the time.

* The planetary or elemental associations of Morinus, Ramon Lull, Agrippa, and others, to the Four (or seven) Virtues.

* Comparison of Tarot to the planetary iconography of the Mantegna cards.


Just some ideas.


Concerning Trump XV - Le Diable

Depending on how you personally interprete the card, Lilly writes:

Of Mercury - "...given to the wicked Arts, as Necromancy and such like ungodly knowledges...."

Of Mars - " ...a lover of Slaughter and Quarrels, Murder, Thievery....Obscene, Rash, Inhumane, neither fearing God or caring for man....Trecherous, Oppressors, Ravenous, Cheaters, Furious, Violent."

I use Le Diable as Mars ill dignified (in a bad mood), and the Le Chariot as Mars well dignified (in a good mood).

Melanchollic gives an interesting comparison of these two cards based on iconography here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=79568&page=3

Scroll down to the "note on Verse 5" ( and don't let the poetry put you off ).


My system agrees with Le Pendu's associations above exactly, by the way.


Ayumi

[Melanchollic]

Another approach in assigning planetary energies to the Tarot is via Geomantic Divination.

Geomancy is sort of the lost 'oracle' of Medieval and Renaissance times. Second only to astrology for divination in times passed, it is not unreasonable to think there could have been some influence in the Trump design by way of this ancient and noble magic.

I won't go into the specifics, as that would take a looooong time. But I'll give you a brief outline to illustate my point.

Geomancy constructs and uses sixteen figures, each with planetary associations, to divine with. Each figure is made of four levels. Each level is made of either one, or two dots. The four levels represent the four elements, and the dots represent whether the element is active or passive.

Here are the 16 figures, their name, their general meaning, their planetary association, and a possible equivelant in the Tarot Trumps.

----o----- PEUR (boy) - energy, enthusiasm, action, risk. Planet = Mars
----o----- (Le Chariot).
--o---o--
----o-----


----o----- AMISSO (loss) - loss. letting go, favorable for love.
--o---o-- Planet = Venus (La Papasse).
----o-----
--o---o--


--o---o-- ALBUS (White) - called white due to the white beards of elderly
--o---o-- sages. wisdom, clarity, peace. Planet = Mercury (L' Hermite).
----o-----
--o---o--


--o---o-- POPULUS (Crowd) - Neutral, passive, the status quo.
--o---o-- Planet = Moon (L' Imperatrice).
--o---o--
--o---o--


--o---o-- FORTUNA MAJOR - success, victory, luck.
--o---o-- Planet = Sun (Le Soleil)
----o-----
----o-----


--o---o-- CONJUNCTIO (meeting) - contacts, meetings, intersections
----o----- marriage, sex, combinations. Planet = Mercury (L'amovrevx).
----o-----
--o---o--


----o----- PUELLA (girl) - beauty, creativity, hope. Planet = Venus
--o---o-- (L'Etoile).
----o-----
----o-----


--o---o-- RUBEUS (red) - violence, passion. Planet = Mars (Le Diable).
----o-----
--o---o--
--o---o--


--o---o-- ACQUISITIO (gain) - profits, gains both material and
----o----- spiritual. Planet = Jupiter (Le Pape).
--o---o--
----o-----


----o----- CARCER (prison) - binding, limitation, restriction.
--o---o-- Planet - Saturn (Le Pendu)
--o---o--
----o-----


--o---o-- TRISTITIA (sorrow) - decline, unhappiness, tears, favorable for
--o---o-- harvesting. Planet = Saturn (XIII).
--o---o--
----o-----


----o----- LAETITIA (joy) - rising up, rejoicing, joy, coming out.
--o---o-- Planet = Jupiter (Le Jugement)
--o---o--
--o---o--


----o----- CAUDA DRACONIS (dragon's tail) - ending, departure,
----o----- destruction. Planet = South Node (La Maison-Diev)
----o-----
--o---o--


--o---o-- CAPUT DRACONIS (dragon's head) - beginning, opprotunities.
----o----- Planet = North Node (Roue de Fortune)
----o-----
----o-----


----o----- FORTUNA MINOR - swiftness, change, decisiveness.
----o----- Planet = Sun (L' Empereur)
--o---o--
--o---o--


----o----- VIA (road) - travel, change, inconstancy.
----o----- Planet = Moon (La Lune).
----o-----
----o-----



This leaves six trumps unused La Mat, I, VIII, XI, XIIII, XXI. I see these six Trumps as the seeker, the sought, and the means (the four virtues).


Mel

[kwaw]

Sun - Sun, Chariot, Emperor, WoF [kings who shall, do and did rule, association of Sun as significator of kings, the sun at rising, height and setting in the turning of day]

Moon - Fool [as lunatic], Bateleur [commonly under moon in many versions of the Children of the Planets, though text notes when included sometimes indicate it is his customers rather than himself that comes under the children of the moon], Popesse [as Holy Mother and number 2], Empress [Moon as significator of female royalty], Chariot [lunar crescent like epaulets, the number 7], WoF [traditional association of fickleness of fortune with luna], the Moon, World

Mercury - Bateleur [in some versions of Children of the Planets] as trickster, Hermit, Devil perhaps [as trickster], Chariot, Star [hebrew word for mercury means star], judgment [as messenger, angel and name of this card in some older decks is angel]

Venus - Star, Popesse, Lover, Tower [as erotic allusion of phallic symbolism, also connection with exile through giving in to the appetites, temptation, from garden of eden, portrayal of adam and eve expelled in some decks including Eve as Venus Pudenta]

Mars - Emperor, Chariot, Devil [mars as malefic, and traditional association with Samael], Tower [as destroyer]

Jupiter - Emperor, Pope [as earthly father representing the heavenly father dieu pater = Jupiter, replacement of pope with jupiter in later decks], Empress [as mother earth, lady bountiful, number 3], Justice [through traditional association with justice and also number 8 as in Agrippa] House of God [name of the 9th house, consignificator of Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter, number 16 as number of sqares in a square of Jupiter, Jupiter as God of Lightening, association with Betyl meteor and holy stones, ie Bethel the house of god, alternative name of card as arrow 'sagitta']

Saturn - Fool [as poverty, miserer], Bateleur [as craftsmen, esp, on those decks with shoe last, also bateleurs under Saturn in some versions of Children of the Planets], Empress [as mother, that which gives form], Pope [as holy father paired with popesse/moon as holy mother], Love[marriage as a social contract, a binding agreement, as forming an alliance of political or economic forces of families or nations, exaltation of Saturn in Libra], Justice [through association with number 8 in number symbolism and as weight], Hermit [as old man, time], WoF [through association with the fall of those on high], Devil [Saturn as a malefic, also image in some decks of saturn eating children related to image of Saturn consuming his children].

Kwaw

[Rosanne]

Thanks, I have enjoyed all your posts. I have read Lilly, but some time ago, along with Agrippa and others on Astrological Geomancy. I looked mainly there at sand divining for the minors as they seem to have come via Arabia. (I have enjoyed Melancholic's poems too!)
The 16 glyphs of geomancy look like some of the Majors.
Some times it takes fresh eyes to look at these images. I was talking with friends about Kabalah and the images and the Tree of Life. They looked at the TdM and decided off the top of their heads- that images were not a Jewish thing; they also decided that the images in a sequence looked like a farmers or a sailors calendar. They asked "who used the cards?"
I answered hesitantly about these in particular (TdM) I think they were used by the Merchant class downwards- but Italians Court members or upper class used another sort of card maybe for instruction and card playing. Sailors definitively! Soldiers and Gamesters, Gamblers and tricksters. I think the Gypsy may have, but more likely read palms. Renaissance Men!
Well my friends said that "if it was Joe Citizen- was he educated?" If it appealed to the common man, then it would have to be usual and not an education course" So I guess the first question is "who used TdM?" There were a lot sold for sure- who bought them? Then next question "What was their take on the images?" Well first of all they would have to recognize them.
So visually is the important bit- not the esoteric ideas behind the images immediately. Even Children who first see Snakes and Ladders know you go down Snakes and up Ladders. It is imbedded somehow as a symbol- snake loss- Ladder Gain. Visually the Maison Dieu and the Star look like April and May, Le Pendu and Mort December and January when the Sun is low hanging and nothing grows. There is where my thoughts take me. ~Rosanne

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

All the single figures as months?(12 is excluding Death and Star)

Not sure why you exclude death and star [which fit very nicely with scorpio and aquarius], i would exclude the virtues giving:

11 Singles figures / letters:

Fool - Aries / Pisces[simply because it is the first or the last]
Bateleur - Aries [as head of the series I],Taurus [according to Wirth],
Popesse - Virgo [the virgin, Zain]; Taurus [Basilde, Kaplan, Thierens],
Empress - Virgo [Papus]; Libra [Zain]; Gemini [Thierens]
Emperor - Aries [chief, head, GD, Crowley]; Cancer [Thierens]; Scorpio [Zain]
Charioteer - Gemini [St. Germaine]; CAncer [GD]; Libra [Thierens]; Sag [Zain];
Hermit - Leo [Germaine]; Virgo [Basilde, GD]; Sag [Thierens]; Pisces [Maxwell]; Aquarius [Zain].
Wheel of Fortune*- Virgo [Germaine]; Capricorn [Papus, Wirth, Thierens, Maxwell];
Hanged Man - Pisces [Thierens, Zain]; Libra [Germaine]; Aries [Maxwell];
Death - Scorpio [GD]; Capricorn [Basilde]; Aries [Zain];
Star - Aquarius [Basilde, GD]; Pisces [Papus, Wirth]; Taurus [Maxwell]; Gemini [Zain];
World - Virgo [Maxwell].

then three virtues [mother letters]:
Justice - Fire / Air ?
Fortitude - Fire / Air ?
Temperance - Water

And eight with several figures [double letters]:

Pope - Jupiter
Lovers - Venus
Wheel of Fortune - [send to first list to make 12]
Devil - Saturn
Maison Dieu - Mars
Moon - Moon [note though also includes symbol for cancer, planet or sign?]
Sun - Sun [note includes two children, symbol of the 5th house consignificator of Leo, planet or sign?]
Judgment - Mercury

Of these 8 two do not contain human figures [moon and wheel of fortune], as Moon is a clear reference to a planet lets call WoF the odd one out and send it over to the first 11 to make up the required 12 and reducing this to required 7. As we see unless we make exceptions to the rule it does not generate naturally a 3, 7, 12 split.

In terms of the zodiacal associations to the cards (some a stretch, those in bold I consider stongest in terms of reference to traditional astrological iconography and/or rulerships and requiring least explanatory justification; some depend on consignificance between signs and houses, the iconographic relationship is frequently a better fit to the house of which the sign is consignificator]:

Aries - Fool, Bateleur, Emperor, Pope, Hanged Man

Taurus - Pope [bull as symbol of pope]; Bateleur

Gemini - Pope, Lovers, Devil, Chariot, Sun [in reference to 'couples' or pairs; also in terms of chariot the winged helmet figure in some older decks ref; mercury ruler of Gemini]

Cancer - Moon, Empress, Chariot

Leo - Sun, Emperor

Virgo - Popesse, Hermit, La Maison Diev [as hospital, virgo as consignificator of the 6th house of sickness]

Libra - Justice, Hanged Man, Lovers [consignificator of seventh house of marriage], Fortitude

Scorpio - Death

Sag - Pope, Popesse, Tower, Hermit, Chariot

Capricorn - Devil, Wheel of Fortune, Emperor, Empress

Aquarius - Star, Fortitude, WoF

Pisces - Hanged Man, Hermit, La Maison Diev [as place of purgation, a hospital or purgatory]

Kwaw

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by Rosanne

So visually is the important bit- not the esoteric ideas behind the images immediately.

The sequence however was and is esoteric, still a mystery to scholars, even in the early 16th century people were wondering what the cards 'meant'; the inclusion of numbers on the majors perhaps indicate the sequence needed to be made apparent for people on whom the esoteric references that would provide a clue to the sequence or hierachy was lost. By esoteric I simply mean an unknown or lost point of reference by which the images and their sequence were related and ordered; could have be a popular but now lost bawdy play as much as, or even more probably than, some secret elitist tradition; or related to some educational curriculum - it is possible if some of the early decks were related to rhetoric for example, that part of the game was to demonstrate verbal skill or memory of classical quotes, sequence was not fixed but depended on who could give the better argument - x beats y because - some eloquent allusion to a classical or scriptural authority.

That being said I think there are arguments for remnants of a calendrical and navigational structure underpinning the tarot structure and imagery, and some of the imagery may well be related to the mapping of time and space [calendars, navigation maps, geographic and astronomical]. Some such references may be found mapped as much is in the festivities and plays of the secular and liturgical year; ie the festivals of the fool, the boy bishop, morality plays and interludes, etc.

Kwaw

[Rosanne]

Yes, that seems visually like it Kwaw! (The bold ones)I only excluded Death and the Star as single figures because of how they looked when you place them in a row- but really they do look like Scorpio and Aquarius. It would be say the Fool at Aries because he would look dead at Scorpio
I know it is hard to say in a almanac way this is TdM because you do have to shift some cards around and take them out of sequence. A lot of things came into play, no doubt at all. I am struck by how many of them look like seasons/months. In fact to me they also look like medieval festivals as well- so I see a connection there also. Nothing seems to be a complete answer, and if it was this would have all been answered long ago. I just have insatiable curiosity.
Some of the correspondences with the cards seem overly exotic and some weird, even for the times, or far too scholarly. Those fancy playing cards that were engravers exercises, were in many ways more understandable- yet they were not so called 'standard patterns' I just am not sure they were remnants of some hidden scientific knowledge that VB alludes to. I, as always, admire your elastic brain ~ Rosanne