Noblet - Atouts: Le Bateleur

[jmd]

I'm unsure as to what Rosanne is implying above by "I do think what we see in the old has been tampered with". From other comments Rosanne has made, "the old" seems to imply the TdMII (Conver-type) that emerges after the carver of this deck was likely well and truly dead. If the Cary sheet is implied (a wonderful depiction that predates the Noblet by possibly 150 years), then there are of course key differences that also show the direction the Marseille took to stabilise to something very close indeed to the Noblet.

These 'historical' excursions lead us smack into the very centre and cradle of the whole "Marseille" iconography, and as such, and though they are historical explorations indeed, they also transcend the solely historical towards a centred and balanced understanding of not only the Marseille-type, but tarot as a whole.

This possibly goes beyond the specifics of the first card of the Majors, but the Bateleur is, after all, so central to beginning to develop an understanding into this most incredible of extent decks!

[le pendu]

I've opened up a new thread to explore the Heri and the Noblet:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1173061

[prudence]

I can see the idea of the wood block being broken resulting in the missing fingers, but as for the wand, that tip is awfully suspicious looking to my eyes. Unless it was a wand that was meant to look as if it had a penis-like tip on one end. (or at least a very very organic looking tip, with a notch centered at the very bottom of it) The "wand" from the Heri looks to me like a spy-glass or some type of musical instrument.

Okay, now to get off of that fascinating aspect of this card, another thing that struck me was the diamond shape created by his bent right arm and body. For some reason this really popped out at me while looking at the link in post #3. Perhaps it was unintentional, but I do wonder if it has a reason to be there.

[JanetBoyer]

Thanks for linking to the review/interview, Moonbow*. That is one of the best, most informative reviews I have ever read.

Thanks Prudence! I'm glad you enjoyed my review/interview of the Noblet deck.

Janet

[prudence]

Originally Posted by JanetBoyer

Thanks Prudence! I'm glad you enjoyed my review/interview of the Noblet deck.

Janet

You are most welcome.

Thank you for writing it.

[JanetBoyer]

My pleasure.

[kwaw]

One of the names for a bateleurs magic wand was the baton or verge of jacob.

The word verge as well as rod, wand, stick also means a man's privy parts, as mentioned by Firemaiden in another thread.

The Verge/Baton of Jacob was also used to refer to the dowsing rod, and also the 'divining rod' of astrologers, also the name of an instrument like the astrolable for determining measurements from star positions. The Huegenot jeweller and travellor Chardin (1643-1713) refers to the rod of Jacob in connection with the astrolabe in his Book of travels in Persia and other places in the East:

quote:
"Pour ce qui est des instruments dont ils se servent dans leurs opérations, le principal est l’astrolabe, comme je l’ai observé, après lequel ils ont ces instruments si connus en mer, qu’on nomme le bâton de Jacob ; et c’est avec ces seuls instruments qu’ils prennent les élévations du pôle [latitudes] , on peut juger que leurs latitudes ne sauraient être des plus exactes.

google translation:
"As far as the instruments they use in their operations, the main thing is the astrolabe, as I have observed, after which they have known whether these instruments at sea, which is called the stick of Jacob, and it is only with these instruments to take elevations of the pole [latitude], we can judge that their world could not be more accurate."

Jacob's rod in a variety of legends is identified with a branch of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil that passed through the generations to the rod of Moses; for example see the history of the rod of Moses in chapter XXX of the Book of the Bee (that Diane O'Donovan made reference to in the thread on the astrolabe):

Chapter XXX of the Book of the Bee on the History of Moses Rod:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bb/bb30.htm

Table of contents for the Book of the Bee translated by Wallace Budge:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bb/

(The Book of the Bee is an historical/theological compilation containing numerous bible legends. It was written by Syrian Nestorian Solomon, Bishop of Bassora (c. 1222). It was written in Syriac. Wikipedia entry.)

Kwaw

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by kwaw

One of the names for a bateleurs magic wand was the baton or verge of jacob.

The word verge as well as rod, wand, stick also means a man's privy parts, as mentioned by Firemaiden in another thread.

Jacob's rod in a variety of legends is identified with a branch of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil that passed through the generations to the rod of Moses;

The French Verge for rod is from the latin virga, as in:

Exodus 4:2 And the LORD said unto him, What that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.
Exodus 4:2 dixit ergo ad eum quid est hoc quod tenes in manu tua respondit virga

The Virga Moses, or rod of Moses, was in Christian exegesis a type of the cross; and the passing of the rod from Adam and the Garden of Eden through the generations parallels the generations from Christ back to Adam via Jesse, the tree of Jesse or virga Iesse (also punning on Virgo, the virgin):

Isaiah 11:1 et egredietur virga de radice Iesse et flos de radice eius ascendet
Esaïe 11:1 Mais il sortira un rejeton du tronc d'Isaï, et un surgeon croîtra de ses racines.
Isaia 11:1 ED uscirà un Rampollo del tronco d'Isai, ed una pianterella spunterà dalle sue radici.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isaiah 11:1 וְיָצָא חֹטֶר מִגֵּזַע יִשָׁי וְנֵצֶר מִשָּׁרָשָׁיו יִפְרֶה:

And one of the synonyms of Tarocch, in the Milanese dialect, is tronco (tronc, virga):

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=270

Kwaw

[DianeOD]

A kind of backstaff, or cross-staff used in determining sight-lines - for surveying, navigation and that sort of thing. I didn't know it was used in astrology or anything mystical.

Looks like: a long, squared-off length of wood with another piece that is made to fit over the end, and slides up and down the length of the longer piece. This is the cross-piece and is about half as long (tho set crosswise to) the staff. At a very brief glance it reminds one of a relaxed cross-bow with a 'very' long backbone, minus its string

Rushing now. If I get back tonight I'll look for web refs.

[kwaw]

Originally Posted by kwaw

The French Verge for rod is from the latin virga, as in:

Exodus 4:2 And the LORD said unto him, What that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.
Exodus 4:2 dixit ergo ad eum quid est hoc quod tenes in manu tua respondit virga

The Virga Moses, or rod of Moses, was in Christian exegesis a type of the cross; and the passing of the rod from Adam and the Garden of Eden through the generations parallels the generations from Christ back to Adam via Jesse, the tree of Jesse or virga Iesse (also punning on Virgo, the virgin):

Isaiah 11:1 et egredietur virga de radice Iesse et flos de radice eius ascendet
Esaïe 11:1 Mais il sortira un rejeton du tronc d'Isaï, et un surgeon croîtra de ses racines.
Isaia 11:1 ED uscirà un Rampollo del tronco d'Isai, ed una pianterella spunterà dalle sue radici.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isaiah 11:1 וְיָצָא חֹטֶר מִגֵּזַע יִשָׁי וְנֵצֶר מִשָּׁרָשָׁיו יִפְרֶה:

And one of the synonyms of Tarocch, in the Milanese dialect, is tronco (tronc, virga):

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=270

And the generations according to St. Luke are numbered in eleven septenaries, 21 from God to Thare; 56 from Abraham to Jesus:

First Series
1. Jesus
2. Joseph
3. Heli
4. Mathat
5. Levi
6. Melchi
7. Janne
8. Joseph
9. Mathathias
10. Amos
11. Nahum
12. Hesli
13. Nagge
14. Mahath
15. Mathathias
16. Semei
17. Joseph
18. Juda
19. Joanna
20. Reza
21. Zorobabel Second Series
22. Salathiel
23. Neri
24. Melchi
25. Addi
26. Cosan
27. Helmadan
28. Her
29. Jesus
30. Eliezer
31. Jorim
32. Mathat
33. Levi
34. Simeon
35. Judas
36. Joseph
37. Jona
38. Eliakim
39. Melea
40. Menna
41. Mathatha
42. Nathan Third Series
43. David
44. Jesse
45. Obed
46. Booz
47. Salmon
48. Naasson
49. Aminadab
50. Aram
51. Esron
52. Phares
53. Judas
54. Jacob
55. Isaac
56. Abraham Fourth Series
57. Thare
58. Nachor
59. Sarug
60. Ragau
61. Phaleg
62. Heber
63. Sale
64. Cainan
65. Arphaxad
66. Sem
67. Noah
68. Lamech
69. Mathusale
70. Henoch
71. Jared
72. Malaleel
73. Cainan
74. Henos
75. Seth
76. Adam
77. God

Kwaw

On the geneologies of Christ see for example New Advent online encyplopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm