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Sulis  Sulis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy
I'm sorry, but your message is not clear. I have no clue what your saying
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'll see if I can try to be clearer:
You say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy
(Im having trouble with the meaning of the cards with an *)

For example, how would this be interpreted?
1 schizophrenia
2 patience
7 clinging to the past
8 awareness *
What is the other title to these cards - is 'schizophrenia' the two of something?
etc.....
Maybe it would be easier for people to help you if you gave the complete title of the card.
I realise that the Osho Zen isn't a traditional tarot but it still has suits and Major and Minor arcana cards yet your post doesn't have anything other than the keywords on the bottom of the cards.

And as your reading is consistent in the study of this deck then it is ok to post it here so long as you are discussing symbolism etc found in this deck and not just wanting help with a reading.
If you do need help with particular readings then the Your Readings forum is the place to post along with your own take on the cards.

Readings depend upon a lot more than just the meanings of individual cards and that is why it's hard to help with just one position meaning, a reading is a whole thing and each card's meaning depends upon context and the other cards around it.

I hope that's made my previous post a bit more understandable.
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Judy, I think I understand your question now.

I don't think the Osho Zen Celtic Cross spread (hereafter OZCC) positions are intended to be significantly different from the positions in a standard CC. That having been said, I agree that the CC generally is not the easiest spread in the world to use, and I tend not to use it a lot with any deck. I personally think that there are other spreads that make better use of the OZ's unique "voice" than the CC.

To explain further, the position 2 card in the OZCC is intended to be a direct response to the card in position 1, the card that represents the issue addressed by the reading.

The position 7 card in the OZCC represents the querent, if you're reading the cards for someone else, or YOU, if you're reading for yourself. This card tells you something important about the person asking the question.

The position 8 card in the OZCC represents an external force, one beyond your control, that is important for understanding the issue that was the purpose of the reading.

What specific cards might mean in those slots, and how you would relate those specific cards to one another in an OZCC reading really is, as I understand Sulis, a post for the Your Readings area.

HTH

M_M~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy
But now, here is another example, where I have no idea how to read the relationship between the cards.

1 - completion
2 - innocence *
7 - letting go
8 - conditioning *
It would be helpful to me if I know what your question was in the reading.

Translating the card keywords into their tarot names, because this is, after all, a tarot deck, your reading is:

1. The World ("Completion")
2. The Sun ("Innocence")
7. 8 of Cups/Water (Letting Go)
8. The Devil ("Conditioning")

It's pretty easy for me to see card 8 as representing worldly temptations from the outside world that you want to yield to (could be anything from booze to sudoku puzzles depending on your vice of choice!).

I can't offer much more help on card 2 without knowing what your question was, but the Sun can represent burnout or an inability to accept recognition or success when it is in a position where it is "crossing" the first card.

Remember that the Osho Zen deck isn't just Zen keywords. It incorporates all of tarot into the individual card meanings. The book that comes with the deck doesn't really go into that.

HTH

M_M~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Margarita
I personally think that there are other spreads that make better use of the OZ's unique "voice" than the CC.

The position 7 card in the OZCC represents the querent, if you're reading the cards for someone else, or YOU, if you're reading for yourself. This card tells you something important about the person asking the question.

The position 8 card in the OZCC represents an external force, one beyond your control, that is important for understanding the issue that was the purpose of the reading.

M_M~
Thank you MM, I think I understand it a bit better. In the Osho book position 7 is "your feelings and attitudes about the issue", now would this be the most important aspect of the querent in the moment that is affecting the issue?

Position 8 in the Osho book is "what you are attracting from the outside", would that not mean that what is going on inside of you is attracting this external force, which would mean that it is in your control, but you have not been aware of it?

j.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Margarita
It would be helpful to me if I know what your question was in the reading.
I never use a question, I just say "I am open to receiving guidance for my highest good" and trust that the reading will be for the most pressing issue, related to my thoughts and feelings, which is the link to the events going on in my physical experience.

So far any reading that I have done for myself or family is always dead on with what is going on inside of us, but we have not been fully conscious of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Margarita
Translating the card keywords into their tarot names, because this is, after all, a tarot deck, your reading is:

1. The World ("Completion")
2. The Sun ("Innocence")
7. 8 of Cups/Water (Letting Go)
8. The Devil ("Conditioning")

It's pretty easy for me to see card 8 as representing worldly temptations from the outside world that you want to yield to (could be anything from booze to sudoku puzzles depending on your vice of choice!).
In the Osho book it says "it's time to take a look at your own reflection in the pond and make a move to break out of whatever you have been conditioned by others to believe about yourself"... I understand the statement, but I don't understand what it means in the context of "what you are attracting from the outside". This meaning doesn't seem to jive with the traditional tarot meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Margarita
I can't offer much more help on card 2 without knowing what your question was, but the Sun can represent burnout or an inability to accept recognition or success when it is in a position where it is "crossing" the first card.

Remember that the Osho Zen deck isn't just Zen keywords. It incorporates all of tarot into the individual card meanings. The book that comes with the deck doesn't really go into that.

HTH

M_M~
I was under the impression that the Osho deck is independent of the traditional tarot meanings because of it's focus on the present and the persons thoughts and feelings. I took that to mean that it's more about your spiritual journey and conscious evolution. I am not familiar with the traditional tarot at all, although I have read through some books and the information on this site to see if I could get more insight into the cards I was having trouble with. In some cases the traditional meaning did not match the Osho meaning.

Then based on the above feedback, I need to learn the traditional tarot as well in order to use this deck? Can this deck not be used independently without that knowledge?

thanks
j.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy
Thank you MM, I think I understand it a bit better. In the Osho book position 7 is "your feelings and attitudes about the issue", now would this be the most important aspect of the querent in the moment that is affecting the issue?
Not necessarily. It's the thoughts and emotions of the querent, whether or not the querent is consciously aware of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy

Position 8 in the Osho book is "what you are attracting from the outside", would that not mean that what is going on inside of you is attracting this external force, which would mean that it is in your control, but you have not been aware of it?

j.
No, position 8 as I understand it refers to the external force itself. What is going on inside of you is position 7.

M_M~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Margarita
Not necessarily. It's the thoughts and emotions of the querent, whether or not the querent is consciously aware of them.

No, position 8 as I understand it refers to the external force itself. What is going on inside of you is position 7.

M_M~
OK, then would that mean that what is going on inside of you in position 7 is what is in fact attracting this external force in position 8? Or is it your issue that is attracting the external force?

j.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy
OK, then would that mean that what is going on inside of you in position 7 is what is in fact attracting this external force in position 8? Or is it your issue that is attracting the external force?

j.
How card 7 will relate to card 8 will depend on what cards are in those two positions, what the other cards in the spread are, and what question was asked.

For example, your feelings (7) might not be *attracting* the force from outside (8). They might be arising *in response to* the force from outside.

Does that help?

M_M~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy
I was under the impression that the Osho deck is independent of the traditional tarot meanings because of its focus on the present and the persons thoughts and feelings. I took that to mean that it's more about your spiritual journey and conscious evolution. I am not familiar with the traditional tarot at all, although I have read through some books and the information on this site to see if I could get more insight into the cards I was having trouble with. In some cases the traditional meaning did not match the Osho meaning.

Then based on the above feedback, I need to learn the traditional tarot as well in order to use this deck? Can this deck not be used independently without that knowledge?

thanks
j.
I don't think the Osho Zen deck was intended to be "independent" of traditional tarot meanings. "Traditional" tarot, after all, can also be all about one's spiritual journey and conscious evolution. I personally have little interest in using the cards to "predict."

My impression of the Osho Zen deck is that its designer(s) knew a great deal about "traditional" tarot in assembling the deck. For some cards, they stuck very true to the original meanings. For others, they took very different tacks indeed. Do you need to learn the more traditional tarot meanings to read the deck? No. Might it be helpful? Yes.

Speaking very broadly, you can read tarot with some nod to the conventional card meanings, or you can read tarot intuitively. The others on this thread have been asking what you feel is the source of the trouble you say you are having, and your answers seem to indicate you are having trouble reading intuitively (this isn't how you phrased it--just my words). This led me, at least, to refer you back to the more conventional card meanings.

But if you don't want to do that, as it seems you may not, that leaves you making intuitive readings again. I don't know what else to recommend, other than to note that there are threads that you can read within this deck study that discuss each 79 of the Osho Zen cards, and you may find some insight there, for example on the Conditioning card. Conditioning comes from outside us after all.

Hope this is of some help to you.

M_M~
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Quote:
For example, your feelings (7) might not be *attracting* the force from outside (8). They might be arising *in response to* the force from outside.

Does that help?

M_M~
Perfect!! That helps a lot. Thank you.
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