lenormand vs. etteilla

faunabay

OK, while I've been reading tarot and oracle decks for years I've never gotten into the historical decks other than owning a Marseilles for a while. :) But I'm getting another itch to explore - I love learning new things. And I've been kind of looking at lenormand and etteilla decks lately. This may be a newbie question but how are they different and how are they similar. By you all giving me your opinions and thoughts you may point out something I never even thougth of asking about. So that's why I don't want to ask any specific questions.....like which one should I get?? :D
 

faunabay

I think my biggest hurdle is I would really like to get one of these decks (maybe one of each), but there are just soooo many of them out there!! How is someone supposed to make a decision when everytime you turn around you see another one?
 

Moonbow

I see these as two very different decks and so there really is no comparision. Both would be a good addition to any collection for study.

For me the Lenormand is more readable as a fortune telling deck and I suspect you would be able to use these quite quickly with some research. There are several versions of Lenormand, Grand Lenormand incorporates astrological symbols and is thought to be difficult to read with. Lenormand decks don't have 78 cards and the cards don't resemble those of a Tarot deck.

The Etteilla is difficult to read with in my opinion. It has 78 cards and they do resemble Tarot cards but are in a different order. Some people here don't consider this a true Tarot deck probably due to the Etteilla system and ordering of the cards.

Here is the Villa Revak site which has comparisons of Etteilla and Marseilles:

http://www.villarevak.org/emw/emw_1.htm

I'm a little rushed right now, hopefully others will come along and give a more in depth answer.
 

jmd

As Moonbow* says, at least the Etteilla is based on tarot...

In so many ways, actually, it is as close to tarot as any 20th century deck that also calls itself 'tarot' whilst deviating in various ways.

The Etteilla - in its variety - was the most popular tarot-type deck in continental Europe in the 19th century.

Personally, I would of course first and foremost recommend a Marseille-type deck over an Etteilla, but out of the Etteilla and the LeNormand, the first is a reflection of tarot, the latter is not.
 

venicebard

jmd said:
. . . but out of the Etteilla and the LeNormand, the first is a reflection of tarot, the latter is not.
A reflection in very choppy water (or a mirror so curved most of the image is lost).

It is utterly amazing to me -- and I only say this here because we are in the Early Decks 'wing' -- what an endless variety of purely fanciful schemes has grown out of simply not being aware of the deep and abiding significance of the original (meaning TdM, as I am no 'Italianist'). If one's purpose resides in fancy, then there is of course no harm. But if deeper significance is sought, then a great deal is missed. (For example, I personally like the artwork of Crowley's deck . . . but it bears only a fleeting relation to actual tarot, albeit more perhaps than Etteilla.)

Then again, to each one's own. (Still, an analogy would be modern psychology/psychiatry, where the serious, empirical investigations of the Jungian school have been pretty much replaced by the philosophy "just drug them and sweep the whole thing under the rug" . . . or am I being too harsh?)
 

faunabay

I've read that an etteilla is difficult to understand and read but nobody truely says why. Is it because it's close enough to tarot to confuse people or is there more to it than that? Anyway I think I might just get a lenormand deck first and see how I like that. Then maybe just experiment with a etteilla deck sometime in the future.
I realize all of you historical deck masters :) probably get tired of people asking what you see as basic questions. But thanks alot for your replies.
And JMD I have had a Marseilles...the Fournier....which I really liked and used for quite a few years. But once I realized it had been languishing on the shelf for a year or two I decided to trade it. Although I do sort of miss it every now and again.
 

Umbrae

Etteilla based or derived decks, come from the dawn of documented tarot based divination (1783).

Lenormand based or derived decks come from the practice of ‘playing card’ divination (cartomancy) with 52 card or piquet style, 32 card, decks.

Divination with Etteilla decks is no more difficult than that of standard modern Tarot.

Historically, the Etteilla based or derived decks mark the beginning of the document-able esoteric leg of the card development, as opposed to the speculative esoteric and/or gaming origins.

Lenormand style divination lends itself towards more of a ‘fortune telling’ slant, as opposed to the current trend in the UK and North America towards psycho-social profiling with tarot.

What’s really the point is what or why do you want to read tarot?

Do you want to be a psychic fortune teller? Lean towards the Lenormand style.

Interested in history? Then slide over to Etteilla.
 

faunabay

Umbrae said:
What’s really the point is what or why do you want to read tarot?

Do you want to be a psychic fortune teller? Lean towards the Lenormand style.

Interested in history? Then slide over to Etteilla.

What if it's neither? :) I do it more for personal exploration.

edited to say: I had gotten off the computer already and decided I ought to explain myself better.
I do read tarot mostly, like I stated above, for personal exploration. BUT I'm interested in either the Lenormand or the Etteilla for a historical perspective and to learn something I don't know right now.
 

Moonbow

OK this is my opinion on both decks for the purpose of reading. It closely resembles Umbrae's.

I love Lenormand cards because to me they read easily and once you have the general meanings for the cards you can then adapt them to your own experiences. You can lay them out and read them from the picture. Although if you want to read the Lenormand spread, which from memory uses the whole deck, then it takes some practice. At one time I was involved in a Lenormand Reading group:

Lenormand/Titania Weekly Draws - Index

I learnt a lot from this group and the constant weekly readings that we did.

The Etteilla deck is like a forerunner to Tarot. The cards are in a different order, as I said before, in that they are numbered 1 to 78. I think we all have our own views of what the Majors mean to us, and whether or not they are in the same order makes no difference to the meaning of the card perhaps, (except maybe if you are a Capricorn, and then order is paramount :D). I think what I find most difficult about reading with the Etteilla is that the pips are quite sparse. When I read the pips of a Marseilles my imagination plays with the foliage. I just don't get the same creative vibes from a deck without the foliage, and the implements are usually arranged in a quite predictive way whereas the Marseilles ones aren't necessarily.

For example, the Nine of Coins Etteilla compared with the Nine of Coins Marseilles:

grandetteila01807pi7.jpg
.............
coins09.jpg


I don't know if this has been of any help in your decision of which deck to buy. Personally I would get both, but if you want to read straight away then the Lenormand will serve you well and it's a really great deck.

Both decks will encourage you to explore the history. Both are important historical decks, which is why I cannot compare them as such.
 

faunabay

Thank you all so much. I think I'm going to start with a Lenormand deck and then see where it takes me. If I decided I still want more I'll get an Etteilla at that time. :)