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"The myths of the "old order," as Crowley calls it, are all based on the non-human paternity to a champion. Some of these include the story of Romulus and Remus who were sired by Mars; Buddha, who was fathered by an elephant with six trunks; and even Christ, who was fathered by the Holy Spirit in the form of a Dove. These stories are all illustrated by the woman astride the Lion."
http://tryskelion.com/tryskelion/

Why do you think these myths allude to animals siring children, especially 'spiritual' leaders? And what is Crowley's point in referencing this?

edited to say:

I've done a little bit of digging and it seems that primitive humans were very concerned with paternity. Without paternity testing, which we have now, it was very difficult to determine the father of a child. Many years ago, belief in supernatural birth and asexual conception was so widespread, it's assumed that it formed the basic characteristic of the primitive mentality. At a time when there was no clear definition between animal, human and plant, it was seen as natural to transfer from one kingdom to another. The ancient Chinese story - Journey to the West has Monkey born from a stone for example.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen
Why do you think these myths allude to animals siring children, especially 'spiritual' leaders? And what is Crowley's point in referencing this?
Crowley explains it all in the 'Lust' chapter of The Book of Thoth.

But to recap. Nearly all religions contain symbolic myths about the conception and birth of their founder that correspond in some way to the current astrological age or to some form of prophecy. To ensure that this particular individual is seen as special or chosen they have to have an unnatural conception.

The story of this kind that most people are familiar with is that of Mary and the Dove. The myth of Jesus requires this miraculous conception to transform Jesus from the bastard son of Joseph into the Son of God.
Think about it. How would the beginning of the New Testament have looked if it started with a story of Joseph knocking Mary up out of wedlock. The pair of them running off to Egypt before Mary's father castrates Joseph. And then Mary being forced to give birth in secret in a pig sty. It's not really the stuff that legends are made of, is it? It all sounds far to ordinary and human for the supposed son of God.

The creators of the Jesus myth tried to tie it in with earlier legends. In the story of the Noah's Ark it was the dove that brought news of salvation for the people and animals in the ark. In the new myth the Dove-salvation motif is continued, but this time it is proclaimed as salvation for the world through Jesus. It's great propaganda material.

After his birth Jesus goes on to form a virginal (XIII) Death and resurrection cult that seems curiously obsessed with fishermen and fish. Even the early emblem of the cult is a fish. Why? Because it all conforms to the spiritual formula of the Age of Pisces (and it's opposite sign, Virgo). This is the main point that Crowley is getting at.

But now we are leaving the age of Pisces and the Virgin-Fish, and entering the age of Aquarius whose symbol is the Woman. The opposite sign at this time is Leo. So the new spiritual motif of our times is the Woman and the Lion.

The last book of the New Testament is Revelation. It tells the story of the Apocalypse and the rise of the Whore of Babylon and the Beast. Is this the story of the end of the world? Or the end of a spiritual age and the beginning of another one? One interpretation claims that the age Pisces seers would not have liked the idea of the end of their spiritual formula, and thus they portray the Beast (Leo) and the Whore of Babylon (Aquarius) as evil harbingers of the end of the world.

That should explain why Crowley uses the symbolism of Revelation in a positive sense. Of course, if your spiritual compass is still pointing to the old age of Pisces the new symbols will seem like evil blasphemies.
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If I might be a bit of a pedant - The Holy Ghost "overshadowed" or "came upon" Mary - but never in the form of a dove. The only instance of a dove is at Jesus' baptism.
I don't know why the story is the way it is, but I don't think it's *quite* as simple as a cover story for Joseph knocking her up. ;-) They were already engaged, so that wouldn't be shocking.

Meanwhile, as for ladies and lions, Revelations also contains two "good guys": a woman clothed in the sun, standing on the moon, and with a crown of 12 stars about her head, and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The church teaches that that woman is virgin, mother, and queen of heaven, and the lion is her son.

So I would say it's not that the new symbols that are blasphemous, but rather, they are ambiguous. They can go toward good or evil.
Crowley used the whore and beast in a positive sense, I think, to "stick it to" his upbringing. :-P~~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTheAltarboy
If I might be a bit of a pedant - The Holy Ghost "overshadowed" or "came upon" Mary - but never in the form of a dove. The only instance of a dove is at Jesus' baptism.
I don't know why the story is the way it is, but I don't think it's *quite* as simple as a cover story for Joseph knocking her up. ;-) They were already engaged, so that wouldn't be shocking.
That's why it's a myth. How can a Solar god be born to normal parents? If Jesus were passed off as any normal kid the story wouldn't work. This same pattern is repeated in many other myths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTheAltarboy
Meanwhile, as for ladies and lions, Revelations also contains two "good guys": a woman clothed in the sun, standing on the moon, and with a crown of 12 stars about her head, and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The church teaches that that woman is virgin, mother, and queen of heaven, and the lion is her son.
A composite symbol. The Priestess and the Empress in one. BABALON.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTheAltarboy
Crowley used the whore and beast in a positive sense, I think, to "stick it to" his upbringing. :-P~~
There's a lot more than teenage rebellion in it. Is there a link between Crowley's upbringing and the development of his philosophy? Absolutely yes! Is that all there is too it? Absolutely not! It's impossible to read the entire Crowley corpus and come to that conclusion.
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Quote:
Even the early emblem of the cult is a fish. Why? Because it all conforms to the spiritual formula of the Age of Pisces (and it's opposite sign, Virgo). This is the main point that Crowley is getting at.
I thought the vesica piscis represented the vagina and therefore the goddess. Babylonian mythology tells of two fish that pushed ashore a giant egg, from which emerged the fertility corn-goddess Atargatis and her lover-son Ichthys, who dies and is reborn annually. The myth of Ichthys and the sign Pisces later became connected with Christianity. Directly across the zodiac from Pisces lies the sign of Virgo, symbolizing the virgin grain goddess of ancient Greece and also connected with the Virgin Mary of Christian mythology, whose birthday is liturgically celebrated on September 8, when the sun crosses the midpoint of the sign Virgo.

The fish symbol was also known as The Great Mother - linked to fertility, birth, feminine sexuality and the natural force of women. It is the outline of her vulva. The fish symbol was often drawn by overlapping two very thin crescent moons. One represented the crescent shortly before the new moon; the other shortly after, when the moon is just visible. The Moon is the heavenly body that has long been associated with the Goddess.
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Quote:
A composite symbol. The Priestess and the Empress in one. BABALON.
I can go with that. :-) I only mean to say it isn't *purely* a case of "whore+beast = blasphemy *because* age of pisces can't deal."

Quote:
There's a lot more than teenage rebellion in it. Is there a link between Crowley's upbringing and the development of his philosophy? Absolutely yes! Is that all there is too it? Absolutely not! It's impossible to read the entire Crowley corpus and come to that conclusion.
Here too, I'd agree. It's not a case of that being all there is to it. I just think that's part of it. :-D Obviously, Crowley is not "Christian" in any usual understanding of that term. So why use Christian symbols - symbols that were representatives of evils, and had no prior use (in that context, so juxtaposed) for any other purpose - for you own symbols of good? It seems that there *must* be a strong element of rebellion in that.
Now, certainly, he explains them in his own context, and in that context it makes sense, and stands, and has continuity with his system, and it works. And I can go with his system, and appreciate it. But he's still thumbing his nose by misusing the symbols of his upbringing. ;-) He liked to shock.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen
I thought the vesica piscis represented the vagina and therefore the goddess.
I think you are trying to gender-ise it a little too much, but I'm not disagreeing with what you have said either. What I'm trying to point out is a magical formula. It's like a general pattern in which the specifics can vary widely and that most certainly includes gender.

I mentioned the Noah's Ark myth earlier and how it was linked with Jesus. The Ark is a feminine symbol. In Christianity Mary becomes the Ark.
With that in mind consider this about the Hebrew letter Mem:
The Secret is hidden between the Waters that are above and the Waters that are beneath. (Symbol, the Ark containing the secret of Life borne upon the Bosom of the Deluge beneath the Clouds.)
Mem corresponds to Atu XII The Hanged Man. It is the card of vicarious sacrifice. The hero dies for the sake of everyone else. It is the hero who must return back to the great mother so that others don't share his fate.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeTheAltarboy
But he's still thumbing his nose by misusing the symbols of his upbringing. ;-) He liked to shock.
You seem to be missing the point that Thelema is, in a certain sense, a continuation of Christianity. The original gnosis present in Christianity is revealed again in Thelema but in a more pure form.

Christianity was meant to free mankind, but it ended up enslaving it in an even worse bondage than ever before. Christianity was supposed to help mankind to recognise divinity within, but instead it trapped it in a cesspool of sin, guilt, and self loathing that we are still dealing with to this day.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
I think you are trying to gender-ise it a little too much, but I'm not disagreeing with what you have said either.
I am not trying to generdise (if that is a word) anything. I am stating fact and fact is something that cannot but be agreed with - right As you correctly pointed out earlier, there is the paternity of Jesus myth ie not fact but the vesica piscis and goddess worship predate Christianity by thousands of years and are indeed incorporated within Christianity, as are almost all pagan rites and rituals from the time of the Romans.

For example, in Greece the Greek word "delphos" meant both fish and womb. The word is derived from the location of the ancient Oracle at Delphi who worshipped the original fish goddess, Themis. The later fish Goddess, Aphrodite Salacia, was worshipped by her followers on her sacred day, Friday. They ate fish and engaging in orgies. From her name comes the English word "salacious" which means lustful or obscene. Also from her name comes the name of our fourth month, April. In later centuries, the Christian church absorbed this tradition by requiring the faithful to eat fish on Friday.


Quote:
What I'm trying to point out is a magical formula.
Where are you pointing out this 'magical formula'? Are you referring to sacred geometry?

Quote:
It's like a general pattern in which the specifics can vary widely and that most certainly includes gender.
I am certain most magical practices involve gender because it is imperative to observe balance in all things.

Quote:
With that in mind consider this about the Hebrew letter Mem:
The Secret is hidden between the Waters that are above and the Waters that are beneath. (Symbol, the Ark containing the secret of Life borne upon the Bosom of the Deluge beneath the Clouds.)
Mem corresponds to Atu XII The Hanged Man. It is the card of vicarious sacrifice. The hero dies for the sake of everyone else. It is the hero who must return back to the great mother so that others don't share his fate.
We seem to be moving away from the original question which is "Why are the fathers of these spiritual leaders animals? and why does Crowley find it necessary to reference this and it isn't only Jesus he references either..."

The rebirth of the hero predates Christianity by thousands of years and is found in most cultural myths (see Jung). I had already pointed out the myth of Ichthys which means 'fish' in Greece and later represented Jesus. We also have the myth of Persephone; the Buddhist concept of skandhas and reincarnation; Inanna (Ishtar) and Odin et al - all of which live, die and are reborn. This concept is not exclusive to Christianity. Indeed the Hanged Man is said to represent Odin rather than Jesus in most decks.

Mem corresponds to Death as the thirteenth letter, but Crowley changed its association to the Hanged Man.

Yes the Eternal Return - he returns to the waters from which he was born the womb or the Holy Grail ie vesica piscis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen
I am not trying to generdise (if that is a word) anything. I am stating fact and fact is something that cannot but be agreed with - right As you correctly pointed out earlier, there is the paternity of Jesus myth ie not fact but the vesica piscis and goddess worship predate Christianity by thousands of years and are indeed incorporated within Christianity, as are almost all pagan rites and rituals from the time of the Romans.
I don't dispute that the vesica predates Christianty. But you seem to be suggesting that because Jesus was male he has nothing to do with anything Piscean.
Notice that when the vesica is used as a Christian symbol the word ΙΧΘΥΣ is inside. In essence Jesus came from the Great Mother, in this case Mary. And through the process of vicarious sacrifice he retured back to the Great Mother - Mary - Mara - Binah - The Great Sea - Death. He never escaped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen
Where are you pointing out this 'magical formula'? Are you referring to sacred geometry?
Death and Resurrection is the magical formula of the Piscean age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen
I am certain most magical practices involve gender because it is imperative to observe balance in all things.
I haven't mentioned magical practices once, so I'm not clear what you are talking about here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen
The rebirth of the hero predates Christianity by thousands of years and is found in most cultural myths
True, but Christianity became the one that dominated a large section of this planet for 2000 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caridwen
Mem corresponds to Death as the thirteenth letter, but Crowley changed its association to the Hanged Man.
Crowley changed nothing. We are dealing with the Golden Dawn system here. If you are not using their correspondences you won't be able to follow the argument. In this case Death is Nun - Fish - Female.
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