The Empresses Bag? (Noblet)

kwaw said:

The Scallop (as in the scallop shaped armrest decoration) is called the Venus shell. In paganism it was a symbol of death and rebirth, and was appropriated and transformed by Christian allegory into a symbol of the two types of caritas – to love god (upper shell of the bivalve, Venus Urania) and to love thy neighbour (bottom shell of bivalve, Venus Natura or Humanitas).

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I had so forgotten this Kwaw! The Holy Water fonts at the entrance doors of the Catholic Church, left and right, where you bless your self with holy water as you enter and leave, are these two scallop shells. Here in the Southern Hemisphere many churches have giant clam shells instead of the carved scallop font. ~Rosanne

The style of shell shaped fonts, either sculpted or real giant oceanic shells, starts c.17th century and is usually associated with baroque style, there is as example in the chuch of St. Sulpice in Paris.

There are also baptismal shells, used to pour water over the head at baptism, emblems of baptism since at least the c.12th century, possilby older (some of the earliest extent Christian art shows the shell being used, in pictures of Chists baptism in river Jordan for example).

Kwaw

kwaw said:

The style of shell shaped fonts, either sculpted or real giant oceanic shells, starts c.17th century and is usually associated with baroque style, there is as example in the chuch of St. Sulpice in Paris.

There are also baptismal shells, used to pour water over the head at baptism, emblems of baptism since at least the c.12th century, possilby older (some of the earliest extent Christian art shows the shell being used, in pictures of Chists baptism in river Jordan for example).

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In relation to baptism, note the two woman on the left with the angel in this PIERO DELLA FRANCESCA (c. 1420-1492) painting of Baptism of Christ, c. 1450, National Gallery, London:



One with a crown of flowers, the other a crown of leaves. These two woman are also generally described as Angels, giving three:

http://www.geocities.com/rr17bb/baptism.html

Their holding hands is said to represent the council of Florence 1439 which sought the Union of the Eastern and Western Churches:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baptism_of_Christ_(Piero_della_Francesca)

They also reflect the common venusian motif of the three graces. The two woman/angels in their holding of hands perhaps suggests a concordance between heaven and earth, or between birth in the flesh (venus natura) and (re)birth in the spirit (venus urania).

Kwaw

Goodness- it puts a whole new (to me) take on the Lover, Card 6 ! ~Rosanne

That is amazing! Thanks for the insight!

kwaw said:

\the vulgar Venus strives, through the fertility of its divine seeds, to reproduce in the Matter of the World the beauty which is divinely conceived within itself.

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So, this combined with the possibility that she is holding a grain bag is starting to make me think that an earthy fertility goddess/mother is being depicted...which is not what I had thought a Marseille Empress was supposed to be depicting.

Is it possible that both of these symbols arrived in this card accidentally? I mean, the scallop really is meant to just be part of her throne, and the bag is just a sloppy sash? Both of these symbols seem to want to convey the same message, imo....so, how could they be accidental?

prudence said:

So, this combined with the possibility that she is holding a grain bag is starting to make me think that an earthy fertility goddess/mother is being depicted...which is not what I had thought a Marseille Empress was supposed to be depicting.

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I am curious Prudence, what did you think the Empress depicted in Marseille?
I have been trying to think of a title that covers it for me other than Venus- I guess I would call her 'Mother Nature or Mother Love' ~Rosanne

Well, something more like a ruler type figure than an earth goddessy type. A female ruler. Or sometimes the female half of the ruling body...next to the emperor.

I should say, this is how I felt I should see her, although in readings, more often than not she represented mother/motherhood....so, go figure, eh?

I know there are some who argue rather strongly against the Empress being equated with a Venusian aspect, or against motherhood, but frankly, I do not see how that can be sustained from a symbolic perspective: an Empress who does not have produce an heir is not only viewed as barren, but can her realm can similarly be considered.

Where there are issues is when some 20th century depictions, often deriving from the WCS deck, are taken as a basis from which to see and understand the Empress as depicted.

Even when Elizabeth the 1st was unmarried and childless, she took on the role of Empress in a smart symbolic way. Her image to the people was of Bride of England and Mother of her people. She dressed like a bride, whitened her face like the Moon, coloured her lips like Venus in passionate red. Very clever lady. I see the Empress as the female Emperor it is true Prudence!, I see her as the compassionate side of the dual Nature. There was a small part in the film 'Out Of Africa' that reminded me of her. Karen Blixen pleads with the Queen's representative to look after her native staff when she is gone, and he says that the rules prevent him; his wife says that she will assure protection of the people, because that was her role, intimating that rules were not her domain and she could ignore the protocol.
On the other hand as jmd suggests it was important for stability to have an heir, and often as not, back in the Medieval times, barreness was usually the woman's fault it seems. ~Rosanne