What makes a reading "accurate" to you?

The Dreamer

Umbrae said:
may believe that when Accuracy becomes the goal, that the reader may begin to rely on “cold readingtechniques, leading to fraudulent behaviors which color the reputations of the rest of the professional field.
Definitely an important point.

I can't see how there is anything that keeps cold reading from being empowering though, solely because it is cold reading- so if empowering is the sole goal, cold reading is not off limits in that case either.
It is unempowering when it is used as a means to do other fraudulent things. And also when people claim that it is divination when it is not. Which of course only is a meaningful distinction if divination is a real phenomenon that can be separated from cold reading. Which even some readers don't seem to think is the case, or pay much attention to as a distinction even if they do think that they are different.

‘ego traps’, “Assuming that everything is literal”, “Feeling you have to answer the question as stated” “Thinking you know what’s going on”… “Making assumptions about a card’s referent”
I think these are all good points for a kind of practical epistemology. They also apply to other areas of life which have to do with our assumptions about what we know. I don't think they can be gotten away from, and paying attention to those assumptions is definitely a prerequisite in trying to find any kind of accuracy.

I try to think about all that stuff and related ideas habitually in most situations (divination related or not) anyway.

I don't see them as necessarily being “ego traps” though, just things to be on watch for since we all have to take our subjectivity, limited viewpoint, and volition into account. Rather, we don't have to but may want to, if... etc.
 

berrieh

may believe that when Accuracy becomes the goal, that the reader may begin to rely on “cold reading” techniques, leading to fraudulent behaviors which color the reputations of the rest of the professional field.

This makes little sense to me. Cold reading isn't about accuracy; it's about profit. If true accuracy -- truth -- is the goal, then it's not about cold reading at all. Cold reading is about perceived accuracy, based on factors other than divination.

I don't think 'aspiring to accuracy' leads to 'cold reading.' I think perhaps ego does, yes, and I think perhaps wanting to be SEEN as accurate does... but not wanting to BE accurate. Those are two different issues.
 

Sophie

berrieh said:
I don't think 'aspiring to accuracy' leads to 'cold reading.' I think perhaps ego does, yes, and I think perhaps wanting to be SEEN as accurate does... but not wanting to BE accurate. Those are two different issues.
Oh, that was my thought all along! Seeing oneself as accurate, or being seen as accurate, isn't the same as being accurate. Basically, a reader can massage their querent's ego, leaving them feeling they've just had an "accurate" reading (what the hell do they know, 5 minutes after the end of it???), when really they've just had an hour of candy floss. It's one ego speaking to another. It's not accurate, it's not true and it's not empowering, though it makes the querent feel big for a couple of days.


Truth is being able to tell your querent that no, the marriage isn't going to get better, that her Mum has serious health problems, but that there is an opportunity for her to walk, in a year, if she takes it.

And then comes the killer dilemma: do you tell her she might lose her children in the process? What's the most "empowering" thing - to hide that risk, or to be 100% truthful and tell that woman who is already crushed by life that if she makes a move out, and takes that opportunity to run, she could lose her children?


See? Accuracy isn't easy. Not because of tossing coins in the air. But because you are playing with real people's lives. Do you play god and decide what's best for your querent, or do you play god and say the truth as you see it?

Or do you take the coward's way out, deny all responsibility in the reading and push it all onto the querent, who has come to you for that light in the tunnel - and call it "empowerment" or "free will"?
 

Umbrae

berrieh said:
I don't think 'aspiring to accuracy' leads to 'cold reading.'

Well, neither do I – in fact that’s not what I said. What I said was, “…that the reader may begin to rely on “cold reading” techniques, leading to fraudulent behaviors…” which is a very different statement than implied.

Fudugazi said:
...But because you are playing with real people's lives. Do you play god and decide what's best for your querent, or do you play god and say the truth as you see it?

Or do you take the coward's way out, deny all responsibility in the reading and push it all onto the querent, who has come to you for that light in the tunnel - and call it "empowerment" or "free will"?

Or...read the cards, which btw is what I choose to do.
 

Sophie

Umbrae said:
Or...read the cards, which btw is what I choose to do.
That brings the reader squarely back to my question, and my challenge: the reader has a responsibility to the querent to read the cards truly, fairly and compassionately - and within all of that, accuracy is contained.
 

Umbrae

Fudugazi said:
That brings the reader squarely back to my question, and my challenge: the reader has a responsibility to the querent to read the cards truly, fairly and compassionately - and within all of that, accuracy is contained.
I agree with everything, except accuracy. I believe that if I read the cards truly, fairly and compassionately, and disregard accuracy - then accuracy will be achieved.

But then...that's my opinion. Am I allowed that?
 

firemaiden

Accuracy needs to be the bi-product not the goal. I agree with Umbrae. This is what he has been saying all along. What is the real goal of the reading?
 

Sophie

Umbrae said:
I agree with everything, except accuracy. I believe that if I read the cards truly, fairly and compassionately, and disregard accuracy - then accuracy will be achieved.

But then...that's my opinion. Am I allowed that?
No way Hosay! This is a DictatorShip! You do as you are told or it's 100 lashes for you, marinero! :laugh:


As I said above in post number xxxxx - it really doesn't matter whether accuracy is a goal or not - accuracy is an essential ingredient of a good reading.

Perhaps it comes down to the individual mental make-up of the reader: for some, it's stressful to think of accuracy - they would rather concentrate on other things and hope for accuracy; for others, they need to set accuracy as a benchmark because it helps them achieve truth, fairness and compassion. Is there a better way? No. There are good, middling and bad tarot readers.
 

Grizabella

Fudugazi said:
That brings the reader squarely back to my question, and my challenge: the reader has a responsibility to the querent to read the cards truly, fairly and compassionately - and within all of that, accuracy is contained.


Yes, that's exactly true.

I think this demonstrates what someone (maybe Umbrae) meant when he said that we're all saying the same thing but in different ways.

In saying the above, you're saying what I've been saying. If you're reading "truly, fairly and compassionately" and that's your focus and intent, then your emphasis isn't on trying to be accurate. Your focus is on the "true, compassionate and fair" reading, but in doing that, you know you'll have accuracy contained within it.

To demonstrate:

Your focus and intent is to read truly, fairly and compassionately
Secondarily, you know that in doing that you will find accuracy

OR:

You strive for accuracy
You try to read truly, fairly and compassionately as a secondary goal

I know that looks like something written on the blackboard for a fourth-grade class, but I just keep seeing people arguing this in circles, trying to make someone else out to be wrong and a sloppy reader when we're on the same page. We're just expressing ourselves differently.

My position has stayed the same----I don't focus on accuracy as my goal and I don't keep a tally sheet. I try to read truly, fairly and compassionately because I care about my sitter. In doing that, accuracy is in there, of course. It's just not what I'm after as my primary goal. I'm after helping my sitter with their problems and their questions because the reading is about them, not about me-- or about my tally sheet of how accurate I am---which is fueled by my inflated ego.

So, Fudu, which do you fall under? The first example or second? We all know it's more than likely the first. It's the first one for Umbrae, too, I'm sure. And for me. So what's the argument all about? Nobody is disregarding accuracy. They're just saying it's not their primary goal in reading for others. They're not putting it before their desire to help their sitter, in other words. I think that's quite clear, but you do love to argue, don't you? ;) :heart: My grandfather used to tell me I'd argue with a fence post. I don't do it as often now that I'm in my crone years, but there was a time-----.

I think it's a paradox---if you try to be terribly accurate and that's where you put your energy, it will elude you. If you put your energy into wanting to help your sitter by reading the cards truly and being in tune with your "intuition" so that you get the answers you're meant to have for that sitter, then accuracy follows.
 

berrieh

I agree with everything, except accuracy. I believe that if I read the cards truly, fairly and compassionately, and disregard accuracy - then accuracy will be achieved.

I feel like we're getting into semantics here... If accuracy is contained in a 'good' reading to you, then... okay. Whether it's the goal or the byproduct is of little matter in the end, to me at least...but that may depend on the disposition, I suppose. Many a scientific discovery was made accidentally. Doesn't affect the end result much.

It doesn't really matter how you stumble into accuracy, and I guess I don't see a schism between reading truly, fairly, and compassionately and reading for accuracy.

Accuracy needs to be the bi-product not the goal. I agree with Umbrae. This is what he has been saying all along. What is the real goal of the reading?

So, what is the real goal of the reading, then?

To me, the goal of any reading is gathering information and highlighting truth, in order to empower and prepare the Sitter---both of these rest on accuracy. Without accuracy, none of this can be done.

Are their other potential goals I'm missing?

To demonstrate:

Your focus and intent is to read truly, fairly and compassionately
Secondarily, you know that in doing that you will find accuracy

OR:

You strive for accuracy
You try to read truly, fairly and compassionately as a secondary goal

I'm not seeing the difference, so I have no idea where I fall.

I strive to empathize and assist the Sitter; I strive to be truthful with them; I strive to find useful information and make them feel both empowered and enlightened (in a mundane sense---simply meaning they understand more, nothing grandiose). For all of these to 'work' properly, accuracy is required. I don't see accuracy as the goal of a reading... I see it as the fuel of a good reading. Without it, you don't get where you're going.

Beyond that, if we're going to discuss accuracy as a 'value' --- I have to say I think most Sitters (myself included, when I sit) value accuracy. If the average Sitter values accuracy, shouldn't the Reader? To me, the notion of going to a Tarot reader who thinks accuracy isn't important is like going to a plastic surgeon who thinks looks aren't important... It's a little risky. I try to see what Sitters value in a reading and strive for that... because it's their reading, in the end.