Book T and the Astrological Signs

fluffy

similia said:
In fact it may help to think to yourself, that the 2,3 and 4 of every suit are always Cardinal. The 5,6 and 7 are always Fixed, and the 8,9 and 10 are always Mutable. This affects their meaning, but also it allows you to work out the Sign when your unsure what it is. (e.g. "I am looking at the 7 of Wands... I can't remember what sign it is.... I know its a Fire sign since its Wands, and I know the 7's are always Fixed signs, so it must be Leo, the sign of Fixed Fire".) Once you get that formula under your belt, you can work out any card in a snap. :)

That is a very clear way of thinking about it! Instead of printing it off I have handwritten it all out and colour coded it myself with crayons. In writing it out by hand it seems to stick in my mind more than simply printing it off and reading it :)

I am enjoying learning it already and can't wait for my Liber t to arrive to put it into practice.

Love Fluffy
xx
 

Scion

ravenest said:
My whole magical theory is that we use astrology in magic/k as the 'energy / force / 'ray' or whatever of a star group is focused on earth via differing and varient dynamics in the Solar System. Yet I am told this is virtually crazy and without precedent in the history of astrology ??? - The stars do not, never have and probably will never be used in astrology. This has been pointed out by the 'best' and 'most reputible' astrologers. on pages in this forum .... so I am still seeking the answer as to what type of astrology are we dealing with here ...
Exactly right, R. :) and I agree 100% about magickal practice.

It's not that the stars haven't been associated with Al-Kindi's rays, but that the asterisms do not equate to the signs. One enormous problem with modern astrology is that very few modern astrologers actually look at the sky. Simply looking at the sky makes mincemeat out of the sidereal argument. As an oft-cited example: the constellation of Aries is teeny-tiny, Scorpio is MASSIVE. They cannot both be signs and it takes a lot of jiggery-pokery to explain why both occupy a position in the Zoo. But as Similia says, it's not actually useful in practice. until you're looking to situate a ritual in space and time.

The Hellenistic association of the decans with the zodiac belt is relatively late and almost completely artificial... because the actual asterisms associated with each decan had been identified so variously. Ravenest's point is a useful reminder to step outside and look at the sky, but this thread is just looking at "Book T and the Astrological Signs."

I don't think we're there just yet. :D

BUT... I'm dying to pursue Ravenest's line of thought about the actual constellations so I'm now going in search of the new thread... :thumbsup:

XO

Scion
 

Lillie

Ok.

Forget the courts for now.

The minors....
(very nicely colour coded)

similia said:
2,3,4 of Wands. Aries (Cardinal Fire)
5,6,7 of Wands. Leo (Fixed Fire)
8,9,10 of Wands. Sagittarius (Mutable Fire)


2,3,4 of Cups. Cancer (Cardinal Water)
5,6,7 of Cups. Scorpio (Fixed Water)
8,9,10 of Cups. Pisces (Mutable Water)


2,3,4 of Swords. Libra (Cardinal Air)
5,6,7 of Swords. Aquarius (Fixed Air)
8,9,10 of Swords. Gemini (Mutable Air)


2,3,4 of Coins. Capricorn (Cardinal Earth)
5,6,7 of Coins. Taurus (Fixed Earth)
8,9,10 of Coins. Virgo (Mutable Earth)

What does it mean?
 

Grigori

Lillie said:
The minors....
(very nicely colour coded)

Thanks! :D I like colors :)


Lillie said:
What does it mean?

At this stage I was just trying to explain the maths behind the system. So for expample when we talk about the 2 of Wands being Aries, everyone can see where that relationship comes from. A lot of decks have it illustrated on the cards, but hopefully some people withouth the classic GD-ish decks will want to participate and this will allow them to work it out for their own deck. For that was really the point of this thread.

What it means in real use comes next. I guess it depends how we want to proceed with this. Should we start talking about the Constellations and relate them to the Minors in groups of 3, or should we wait until we have the decans and the ruling planets under out belts?
 

elvenstar

Constellations as opposed to Signs? :p

It may be an idea to look at them in groups of three first, so that we slowly progress from general to specific? That way I guess we can examine what e.g. the 2, 3 and 4 of wands would have in common due to being ruled by Aries. If ruled is the right word. Or what all the 'cardinal' cards have in common. Don't know if that's useful, this is what I've been wondering about since yesterday.
 

Aeon418

similia said:
Which is why Book T lists the minors as starting from 0 degree Leo. The star Regulus (also known as Cor Leonis, the Heart of the Lion" is the starting point of the Zodiac, as as its a part of Leo, it means we're talking Sidereal astrology.
Sidereal astrology, yes. But it may be nothing more than a convenience.
http://heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=2318#top
 

Always Wondering

fluffy said:
I am still considering your first post and not really thinking about constellations and stars just yet, or decans really till I get this clear. I hope I don't hold everyone up!

Fluff
You're not holding me up, Fluffy. I need to learn by doing as well. If I rush ahead without getting the basics right my system will be faulty. Good thing we have patient teachers, hua? :grin:
 

Scion

LOL Don't worry Lil, it was a research goof.

I just didn't want it to derail the discussion later or to confuse people finding the thread for the first time.

The important thing about your decans question is that in large part the Book T meanings for the Minor Arcana are derived from those decans that Similia posted in radiant colors back on page one.

Think of it this way. There are four basic qualities: hot, cold, wet, dry, which in combination produce 4 elements: Earth Air Fire, Water. There are three modes in which those elements express themselves: Cardinal, Fixed, Mutable. Each Zodiac sign can be understood as one of the 12 possiblities (3x4) So Libra is another name for Cardinal Air.... and using the symbols of Libra allows us to refer to all of the things implied by Air and Cardinality. The Decans take it a step further. Each of the 12 signs is further divided into 3 decans: Ascendant, Succedent, and Cadent which sort of map the territory of the sign. Which is why the first 10 degrees, the 2nd 10 degrees, and the 3rd 10 degrees of Libra are all distinct.

So... working backwards you have 36 decans with are 12 groupings of 3 (Ascendant, Succedent, and Cadent)... And those 12 are in turn grouped by Mode and/or Element. It's a way of breaking down the manner in which stuff manifests.

Then the individual decans provide planetary rulerships which help characterize each of them. Which is (primarily) where the meanings in Book T derive, with a little simple Qabal;ah stirred in for flavor. :D
 

franniee

Would one of you please tell me where you got the BookT online? Do you have an online copy or do I need to go buy the book?

thanks
 

Scion

No NO. I have a PDF copy I need to post. Can I post a PDF copy here?
 

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