Tarot Sources

[eugim]

Hello Bee and also Mrs. Rosanne:
Well you mentioned too many topics at once.I will try to replay you a few of them.
First of all the Arabs didn t preced the Greeks in Egypt.They as other cultures as Hebrew learned from Egypt as the Greeks did before them.
Arabs brought to Spain and Italy (The two doors of entrance in Europe ) they knowledge and the other of Egypt,Caldea,Greeks for example.
I think I mentioned to you the School of Alexandria.Well there took place a multicultural intermix of the highest order.And Arabs compilated these intermix,so for example you have their Sufism.
Not be to forget one of the first father of the Christian Church Origenes who also been there at this School of Alexandria.
All drives you to Neoplatonism / See here to go ahead ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

Well just for me if there is a source of Tarot image meaning support is Neoplatonism.
With regard to Pico I think you "touched" a very delicate topic...
I could say that there were two men that made a sort of strong hinge,so then two ways run yet today and never meet each other.(For me thank s God ! )
Marsilio Ficino / Neoplatonism
Pico della Mirandola / Christianized Qabbalah (Not the true Qabbalah) rejected by the own Hebrews as Gershom Scholem.
Why ?./ Just because Qabbalah is also a Neoplatonism attempt of some Hebrews first to intermix with other cultures and second to sincerely to learn more from them.
See for example Filon of Alexandria :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

I feel close to Marsilio point of view.Qabbalah has its own very rich knowledge,but if we are looking for a Western source of Tarot I think Neoplatonism is best.
Arabs just only remembered us the origin of the source,that is Egypt knowledge through Greeks eyes plus their own contribution.
Did you know they teached Spain how to make paper ?
Did you know that the Cordoba library was more complete than anyone in Muslim world ?
With regard to the Cary Sheet just I think is an angel.
Curiosly commonly associated with XIIII Temperance card of Marseilles Tarot.
But for me is not a boy but is depict as a boy.Is an angel on a hermaphrodite sense I mean, a depiction of our inner dualism.
One must for a brief moment think about Alchemist symbol of Mercury.

The Tower Card named LA MAISON DIEV is just this for me,the body of the human being and the Universe the body of God,so here takes the transmutation work.
Is the Athanor where matter by the action of the fire of the Soul makes the release,the liberation of the Spirit.That concern to a human being not less to our Sun regard to his own "Path" on more best high heights.
Which is the purpose ?
That each minuscule particle of Matter return to God with Conscience.
Why ? / I m not God Madams ...

With regard to Vieville deck I only pointed some details,suggesting coincidences,I m far for end,but doesn t mean for me that Vieville is the closest to the Cary Sheet.
I told you before Bee that is best that each one find for him or herself which deck is more on an " inner feel " sense,closest.
Vieville is a unique deck.Here at the forum I see how the members has the anguish doubt about where "place" it,except Le Pendu.
See his website tarothistory.com
I can t recommend to you any deck,you MUST find yours for your own.

Rosanne / On the ATS site there is a very interesting note about Qabbalah and Sufism and you can also could go to the site of the author of the book Nicholas Swift.
I can t here in Argentine has the chance to to "get it " I mean the book but surely you and Bee.
He Swift surely said Big "things" ...
Here Bee for example,you have the origin about 8 and 9 numbers response I think.

My respect for both as ever .
(Friendly as ever Mrs. Rosanne ... /Yes,again ...)

And again I want to attach this that is for me the true example approach to Tarot.
Is a paragraph of A. C. Doyle novel "A Scandal in Bohemia"
I think is very useful as an approach to Tarot for example.

-Watson:"This is indeed a mystery," I remarked. "What do you imagine that it means?"

-Sherlock Holmes: "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.


Eugim

[Bernice]

Oh! Eugim, now you've given me such a lot more to think about. Thank you for the Wicki-links

Just because Qabbalah is also a Neoplatonism attempt of some Hebrews first to intermix with other cultures and second to sincerely to learn more from them..... But not the 'true' Quabbalah.

.
This gets more and more complex - and like Alice in Wonderland, I get more and more curiouser!

Current summery re. the Tarot: The 'traditional' tarot doesn't actually exist. What does exist is a unified system of cosmopolitan proportions, birthed as various card decks in Spain and Italy, which since then, have favoured a particular pattern. (Trying to keep it simple).

Sherlock Holmes: Yes, best approach... go for the facts!

Lots to read and mull on now.

Bee

[eugim]

Hello Bee:
Climb slowly,pay attention to your own feet and remember to have a " Deck Port" "
That is all I can say more than I learned.

Eugim

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by Bernice

Eugim, did the Arabs preceeded the Greeks in Egypt?

No. But the Libyans did (who were the great sea-farers of ancient times).

If so, then it is to Alchemy we should be looking for many of the first/original card meanings!

I agree there, but the Arabs only transmitted and developed alchemy: evidence points to Hebrew influence in earlier times, 'Maria the Jewess' being alchemy's oldest known sage in the West.

The egyptians are known to have absorbed other cultural beliefs into their own, so is it likely that their beliefs may have included some Hebrew.

Actually, the Egyptians were remarkably resistant to external influence, I thought, as evidenced by the continuity in their culture surmounting two great disruptions, as well as endurance of many of its forms through times ruled by foreign dynasties (such as the Libyan, and the Ptolemaic). More likely, I should think, that much of Hebrew esoteric knowledge was gleaned from their stay in Egypt (as much was also gleaned, evidently, from their stay in Babylon), just as the oldest Semitic letters were. (In fact, I can argue quite extensively in favor of this, but I'll shut up now: carry on.)

[eugim]

Hello Venicebard:
1-You said "Maria the Jewess' being alchemy's oldest known sage in the West.
She was only one of many in Alexandria and if there were an oldest and highest known sage in the West,these was Zozimo of Panopolis (So Greek).
That show how Hebrews as you know enriched and too much with their meet with many cultures.
That s why I allways said you that Qabbalah is a result of Neoplatonism because Neoplatonism is a result of compilated sources made by Greeks as Egyptians did before.
You mentioned Babylon but was a more Astrological so Astronomic contribution
2-Arabs weren t just only a "bridge" through Cordoba in Spain and Sicily in Italy in Europe.
They developed and we owed them many too many contributions at the times when in Europe the people were absolutely illiterate.
For example they learned them how to make "paper"
So the library of Cordoba was more voluminous than the other on Bagdad.
They were in Spain from 711 to 1492.
Do your really think that they just " only transmitted and developed alchemy " ?
Don t you know Sufism ?
Or Djabir ibn Hayyan who live around 720-800 /Known as Geber,and Avicena just for few examples ?
As you told me before on one unkindly way,you re misinformed about Arabs and Sufism topics.
3-Alchemy is an Art of the highest order,and of course don t have any relation with "Chemistry clumsy attempt " as the Mary the jewess who robbed from Zozimo her "Bain-marie".
Alchemy is an Inner transmutation and Arabs were ours best bridge to it at the time we are talking about,best if at this time we can t able just to write our own name...
So Arabs learned to us how to "Think" ,my Amicci.

Eugim

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by eugim

Hello Venicebard:
1-You said "Maria the Jewess' being alchemy's oldest known sage in the West.
She was only one of many in Alexandria and if there were an oldest and highest known sage in the West,these was Zozimo of Panopolis (So Greek).

It is my understanding that he was from a later strata: I shall try to get the source for this and give it you.

That s why I allways said you that Qabbalah is a result of Neoplatonism because Neoplatonism is a result of compilated sources made by Greeks as Egyptians did before.

Many would agree with you; but I find it implausible, as Neoplatonism was largely speculative philosophy, was it not, whereas I classify Qabbalah as (metaphysical) science, based on its efficacy.

You mentioned Babylon but was a more Astrological so Astronomic contribution

Yes, that is where the twelve simples were honed into shape based on their signs, giving birth to square Hebrew letters: it is an aspect of Qabbalah (or Merkavah) that has been lost (the rabbis think samekh is sagittary's thigh, for example, rather than the head).

As you told me before on one unkindly way,you re misinformed about Arabs and Sufism topics.

You are letting your emotions get the better of you here. I was not belittling Arab contribution but rather simply pointing out the time frame: Judaism is much older than Islam (as is its influence on alchemy). Sufism was a movement that arose within Islam, was it not (its form of 'Gnosticism' or inner teaching).

3-Alchemy is an Art of the highest order,and of course don t have any relation with "Chemistry clumsy attempt " as the Mary the jewess who robbed from Zozimo her "Bain-marie".

I don't know to what you refer, but interestingly enough the real Qabbalah and alchemy do have a great deal to do with chemistry but do not, like the modern chemist, ignore the relationship of things metaphysical to it.

Alchemy is an Inner transmutation and Arabs were ours best bridge to it at the time we are talking about,best if at this time we can t able just to write our own name...

Arab sources became known in Europe from the Crusades and from Spain, true, but historians do not know how much was understood in Judaic and Keltic circles, as their esoteric teachings were kept secret. Evidence from the Tarot of Marseilles and Qabbalah's deeper strata suggests a great deal had been lost in the Keltic and Judaic currents that was repaired or restored around the time of the Troubadours, by sages comparing these two branches of the same tree (a work I have had to repeat because it was lost again), leading to Qabbalah's inception (and later, tarot's).

Cheers.

[eugim]

Venicebard:
To sum up and for don t drives it "too long and too narcotic" my new friend ...
Do you also think that the eighteen treatises of the Corpus Hermeticum are also a dilettante clumsy and without any purpose approach to the deepest truth ?
I dont want here to be overwhelming and annoying my freind,but just for only one example ...

XVI- Treatise " Definitions of Asclepio to the King Amon " .
Part 1 : About the inconvenience of the translations to Greek and Part 2 : The Egyptian terms are Energy "
In both the first as an introduction and the second as a development of it,there Asclepio is talking about the Energy within the words.
It s unnecessary to add more just for you only now I think.

"TO EVOKE IS TO SUMMON "
So that s why I strongly posted before XIII card is not mentioned,but numbered so number a card suppose for me give it a place so a physical place.

Eugim

[venicebard]

Originally Posted by eugim

Venicebard:
...Do you also think that the eighteen treatises of the Corpus Hermeticum are also a dilettante clumsy and without any purpose approach to the deepest truth ?

No! when I read the Corpus Hermeticum (in English), it struck me as close to the core of things. I consider Alexandria the great center for the eastern Mediterranean, though in Gnostic ("Myth of the Pearl") and Jewish (bondage) symbolism, Egypt represents the material or sensual. Certainly Egypt was the probable early center whence alchemy spread. I do also entertain the possibility that the 'pferillt' of of the Kelts (branch of druids concerned with use of fire, in metallurgy and medicine primarily) also knew much of Hermetic science or alchemy, yet they may well have gotten it from Egypt (though it was the Kelts who were the pre-eminant metallurgists of the Iron Age in Europe), or else it was a widespread early tradition (that is, known to competent metallurgists along major trade routes), which is more probable.

[eugim]

Hello venicebard...

You are for me a deep thinker specialist on Qabbalah,and I expect have your point of view about the book "The Tarot and the Kabbalah,the Ancient Mesopotamians and the Sufis " of Nicholas Swift.
Why ?
Because there he bring to us the Ogdoad,so comes to my mind the treatise of the Corpus Hermeticum "Poimandres" chapter 25 and 26.
Here I attached the link.

http://www.vaxxine.com/cabalaofeightelements/

Eugim

[Bernice]

Eugim,

Mind blowing link!! Have saved it to my pc for further study. I have in the past studied the Tree of Life - from quite a different viewpoint. This link is astounding. Many, many thanks, my friend!

Bee