New Tarot Card Movie

[Alex]

but I've lived in the D.C. area for seven years already, I don't think, or I haven't yet met someone who's very concerned about the Tarot or anything like that. Most people just haven't heard much about it and they react with some curiosity when I mention it. But there are many places in the US I haven't been so there might be ultra conservative spots all over that I haven't come accross.

Originally posted by Diana
We don't have Ms. Cleo, and people in Europe are not very concerned about the Death and the Devil card. People are not scared of Tarot here, possibly because it has been part of the culture for hundreds of years now.

[arkgoth]

Hmm...you're right Tarotphelia....I shouldn't turn to you guys for help. As much as the film is finished...(although I had thoughts on reshooting it)....I guess I will stick to my original script and just finish it the way I originally conceived it.

I will however put a disclaimer that my movie has nothing and does not reflect the Tarot community and represents nothing but a fraction of my imagination. Tarotphelia, if my concerns on how my film would affect the tarot community bothers you, I will be sure to just go with my gut knowledge from here on.

Let me just say in public, I have no big knowledge on the tarot as opposed to many of you. But I can say I tried, but if my curiosity is not well received, well...at least I TRIED I would like to thank those of you who were concerned and gave me the opportunity to dive a little further into the subject that I was portraying on film. Your help was invaluable.

I do enjoy everybody's feedback and would like to say if anybody wants to e-mail me later on, they can do so at director@ouijiboard.net

Thanks...PEACE OUT!

[aeonx]

Wow, I don't check the thread for a couple of days and look what happens. I got to page three, but I can't hold it in any longer!

Diana, I absolutely agree with you!

We can't always consider what's good or bad in order to make a movie. Speaking first about a tarot deck made out of human skin: Creepy? Yes. Damaging in some way? No. What about Army of Darkness? And the movie it was based on; Evil Dead? In both movies an 'evil' book made out of human flesh was central to the theme, but I don't see anything damaging in this.

I think that this movie would do no harm. Maybe people who's condemning tarot get a little more condemning, but these are issues we need to cope with in life. There's prejudice in all and everything, and we need to make up our opinion about things on our own. We just need to speak our mind. That's what's gonna change attitudes, not any movie.

Did you like Harry Potter? Well that's a paradox. Here we praise magic, and even then people got sceptic of it! So it doesn't really matter how you do it. People just need to think for themselves.

Tarotphelia: I don't think that every new member should have to clarify who they are before posting. If you had checked at for instance www.imdb.com, you would see that the names mentioned are *real*. Or his website. It's not his responsibility to prove his authenticity.

~aeonx~

[aeonx]

Originally posted by Diana
Well indeed, another example of the Atlantic Ocean divide. I think I will have to leave this thread, as it is obviously relates to specific American problems which I can only see from the outskirts, as a spectator. We don't have Ms. Cleo, and people in Europe are not very concerned about the Death and the Devil card. People are not scared of Tarot here, possibly because it has been part of the culture for hundreds of years now.

I have to agree with Diana once again. With some exceptions (of course) people are not very afraid of tarot in Norway either. The Death and Devil cards are not particularly scary. Most sceptics just laugh at the whole deal about tarotcards.

Interestingly, most people I meet are very curious about tarot. If I mention that I collect tarot decks, for instance, they are all over me with questions. And I explain to them the difference between fortune-telling and spiritual development.

We certainly don't have much fearful and condemning attitudes here, at least not in my experience. And I sincerely do not believe that people in general connect the sniper to any cults or satanical worship due to one tarotcard left on the ground. That was simply a gimmic. And a bad one...

~aeonx~

[allibee]

Originally posted by aeonx
www.imdb.com,

www.imdb.com

works better without the comma

[aeonx]

Originally posted by Khatruman
When you talk about your point in exposing evil I am reminded of Oliver Stone's Natural Born Killers, a movie that I study with my Adult High School students. I stress that the evil in that movie is not Mickey and Mallory Knox, who are actually victims of it, but it is the Media (at one point the words "Too Much T.V." are splashed across their chests). Stone was appalled at the casualness of violence in the media and saw us becoming desensitized to it. I love his movie for its in-your-face portrayal of the grossness of media violence.

After this movie, several incidents of 'Mickey & Mallory'-behaviour were reported in countries over the world, and people got killed. You say in your first post that you won't see the tarot horror movie, but Natural Born Killers is 'ok' because of the message you understood from the movie?

Exactomundo. Your point. I bet that the majority of people who saw NBK did not get the message Stone was trying to convey, instead they disliked the movie because of the violence and 'sickness' of it. People see different things and make up their own opinions. Trying to covering up things will not help clarifying them to others. We, ourselves, need to voice the actual matter.

~aeonx~

Sorry 'bout all the rambling.

edited: thank you allibee!

[aeonx]

Originally posted by Tarotphelia
I wish you had bothered to do some proper research instead of trying to use us to fix your ailing script in a hurry for free.

Perhaps you need to find some paid consultants in the dark/satanic/ ritual magick side of the occult world who can give you the insights & experiences that you need to add more authenticity to your current work.

I think they would be fairly easy for you to find, and probably glad to meet you.

Tarotphelia

Tarotphelia, I couldn't believe what I read above, I had to re-read it three times. If the guy wants info from tarot readers as research for his film, there's absolutely nothing wrong about it! Who made the rule that one has to pay for getting ideas from others? I think it's great that he came here, instead of basing it all on assumptions. That shows that he's interested, and as he said himself, he actually learned something too. That I call proper research!

He did not specifically ask you for help. He asked the community, and as you might have notices: People did want to contribute. We does not need a babysitter to tell us where it's appropriate to reply. I'm sorry if you feel attacked here, but your narrow-minded statement above just make me annoyed.

argoth: I, and others, appreciate that you came here for info and advice, and Tarotphelia's statement speaks only for Tarotphelia.

~aeonx~

[allibee]

Originally posted by aeonx
Tarotphelia, I couldn't believe what I read above, I had to re-read it three times. If the guy wants info from tarot readers as research for his film, there's absolutely nothing wrong about it! Who made the rule that one has to pay for getting ideas from others? I think it's great that he came here, instead of basing it all on assumptions. That shows that he's interested, and as he said himself, he actually learned something too. That I call proper research!

I've got to disagree with you there I'm afraid yon Mistress of the Vowels
I think you'll find some people's problems with this - mine, and I think I speak for Tarotphelia too here - is that he has ALREADY made most of the film, BEFORE coming to do research and it seems inevitably based on ASSUMPTION, inaccuracies and thus serving to popularise public misconception of the tarot even more.
I always enjoy reading your posts, but I think you are wrong here, sorry.

allibee
off to bed, it's after 2am again.

[cricket]

Oh my, oh my, oh my! Things got a little stormy in here as well as outside my house today, didn't they? While I do see how somebody could get a little miffed at being asked about something as important as tarot is to us at this late a point in production for something as widespread as this movie will be, at least the effort is being made. That's a good start.

The whole karmic ending is a good idea, as is the karma figure being justice, and the torturous device being a wheel. Maybe combine that with the reading where every card is judgement? I don't know. But the wheel thing does remind me of an archaic form of torture/slaying involving tieing people to a giant wheel, which is slowly pulled forward by a number of beasts (possibly the beasts shown on the wheel card?) and crushing the person from the toes up. A little gory, but it happened.

'Oh my!' again after taking a peek at the temporary webpage. Thanks for putting that up there. Now I'm pretty damned sure we'll have to relocate. Soon! Would you mind sharing a little bit of the take with me so I can put a down payment on a hut somewhere in, oh, Timbuktu? Or do I just have to wait for the house to be burned down and use the insurance money - providing it comes in? It sounds a little drastic but that's about the point where this area is at. If you bothered to read that thread that was posted, you have a general idea of a few of the things that happened. All that because I had a tarot deck in the front seat of my car. Just one. The Robin Wood, in fact, which is one of the least offensive decks I can personally think of.

Sorry if this isn't in my usually chirpy way, but we've just spent the last 6 hours or so pent up in a closet waiting out tornado warnings/sightings/whatnot, and I'm a little tired and grouchy.

[Khatruman]

This post has been edited by me on 12/19 in order to take out instigating remarks said to aeonx, which were a mistake on my part, and focus on my rebuttal to her comment about something I wrote in a post. She made a good point in that I am a teacher, and ought to always teach the higher ground. My apologies, aeonx.

aeonx,
Since you apparently used a piece of my argument to discredit my line of discussion, I feel the need to respond and clarify my point of view:

Originally posted by aeonx
After this movie, several incidents of 'Mickey & Mallory'-behaviour were reported in countries over the world, and people got killed. You say in your first post that you won't see the tarot horror movie, but Natural Born Killers is 'ok' because of the message you understood from the movie?

On your first assertion, I will have to take your word for it that worldwide copycat violence resulted from the viewing of this movie, though I have not heard of any from any other source. This may be true, but since I did not research it I cannot verify one way or another. In any case, let me move my point further. My quote you refer to was this:

"In any case, I do not plan on seeing the movie if the subject is as you say."

Now, at the time of that post, I understood the movie to be a horror movie glorifying demonic practices and using tarot to exemplify that. I am not fond of horror that revels in itself. I prefer horror to be repulsive and to be shown to point out that it is horrible. It was my personal choice to decide whether I would see it or not. Also, I continued after this with,

"I know any form of media cannot "make" people think a certain way, but if the only way something is presented is in a negative light, then, well, that's most likely how folks will see it. And if you expect to make the point within the context of the movie that this boy is naughty,, ..bad bad for doing this... there is still the contingent who will not see the movie, but think themselves experts knowing about the movie."

My point here was to alert arkgoth to possible implications, and since he graciously entered a tarot chat site for our viewpoints, I thought I would give him words to think about. I did say this in another post:

"I am not witch hunting arkgoth and his film. I believe he made a call for opinions and I wanted him to note some possible implications, not ultimate truths. If I believed that he didn't want to hear all sides and be open to them, I would not have bothered to post him, or at least post anything thoughtful. I will give him as much information as I have in my limited store of knowledge (I, in no way, profess to be a tarot expert. I have much to learn)."

I did also add that, "However I do stand by my belief that a movie of this subject matter may lead to negative repercussions within the tarot community."

Exactomundo. Your point. I bet that the majority of people who saw NBK did not get the message Stone was trying to convey, instead they disliked the movie because of the violence and 'sickness' of it. People see different things and make up their own opinions. Trying to covering up things will not help clarifying them to others. We, ourselves, need to voice the actual matter.

i agree that many did not get the message of the movie, which is precisely why I show the movie in the context of a media awareness course. And within the context I preface the viewing of the movie within a contextual background of Stone's message. I use an extended version which has a documentary featuring Stone and the main cast explaining the movies roots in satire (which attempts to point up society's problems by ridiculing them) and Stone's assertion that he is disgusted with violence being treated by other filmmakers as fun. I highlight the points he makes, and I even show a further petition he makes at the beginning of the video for the viewer to understand his message against desensitization of violence and a challenge for the viewer to see it again as he intended.

I do not wish to "cover up" arkgoth's attempt in this movie; in fact, further in my post I said, "I love his movie for its in-your-face portrayal of the grossness of media violence. If you perform this feat as well as he, then I think your movie will be wonderful. "

If you think I contradict myself by saying this, having previously said I do not plan on seeing the movie (followed, I stress, by an "if" clause, because even in that post I did not pass a final judgment on the movie), I think it is just my progression of understanding, which came by speaking my thoughts, hearing the other side, and adjusting my understanding accordingly, not through hypocrisy. I think I demonstrated my evolution of understanding when I responded to Diana's despondency at my comments:

"I will try to look at things with a more worldly perspective, and for that I ask that you continue to offer it to us, or at least offer repeatedly that mirror through which we view our blemishes. "

I wanted to keep Diana in the dialogue, since she offered opposing viewpoints and an important point about how much of the world is different from America, and, as I have also said in this thread, everything has its opposite and a whole needs to have each opposite in order to be effective.

Another difference that I saw between NBK and this movie in progress was that Stone came from an angle of expertise, having been thoroughly engulfed in violence from personal experience in Vietnam and saturation of violence in the media. arkgoth professes several times in this thread that he knows little of his subject matter. I therefore felt I might offer some of my own insights, though I am no expert. On a sidenote, hoping that arkgoth is still reading and has not closed his open ears because of a comment he read, I do hope he remains in the discussion and still holds some of the ideas he was presented with by the posters of this thread. I am quite interested in his movie now, and I see he is a thinking man trying to stimulate further thought, which is to me, a most valuable thing.

Finally, I do not wish to compare this movie with NBK for one simple reason: NBK is a finished product, whereas this remains now a work in progress. I am not ruling out seeing it, just speculating what may be. I do not attempt to suppress, simply offer up views when someone asks for them. I am proud that arkgoth found one of my musings to be something interesting to think about, something he has not considered, and I hope it is something that adds further to his understanding of the world, or makes him question his understandings, as I get the impression he wishes to do with this film. That to me is a good thing. As a teacher, one of my constant, underlying missions is to challenge my students to think in a way they haven't thought before. True intelligence, in my opinion, comes from having ones thoughts, understandings and beliefs challenged, not to necessarily change them, but at least to test them, which can result in reinforcement of beliefs, evolution of belief, or total turnaround of belief. And in the end, that is for the individual to decide upon.

Peace!