Timing with TDM Camoin or Noblet...

[yaraluna]

Originally Posted by EnriqueEnriquez

Absolutely. It is frustrating and encouraging at once.

Nice!

EE

thank you Enrique.

That is one of the reasons why I am very selective in giving in-person readings. I SEE the story, the flow of the cards i HEAR/SEE them talking and telling things....I just don't have the words sometimes to express what i see, and in-person readings are time constrained and full of expectations by the querent!!!

I know the more i do it in person the more i will be able to SAY what i SEE with ease and quickly. To me the tarot oracle is so organic that being in a hurry doesn't fit with it. unless of course that is what the cards want.

deviating now .. ...

back to the topic.... I have been practicing just saying what i see right away the best i can in words and it is working well.

thank you////

[EnriqueEnriquez]

Yaraluna,

That’s excellent.

Sometimes I tell my clients that I am not sure about a certain word I will use to express a certain thing. So, I will tell them what I see, using the best words available, but there is always room to redefine that wording. I love the way the cards give you a certainty in a glance, and the most important things for me is to try at convey that certainty to my client, with honesty. But we are always translating messages from an imaginal language to a verbal one, and I have found that the healthiest way to approach this is by not taking any word as definitive.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

Best,

EE

[Melanchollic]

.


To the Reader,

Here be my simplest key for an Easie and plaine Method teaching how to judge upon the trumps, all two and twenty, of the Carte da Trionfi, including, but not exclusive to the declaring those generall Accidents which in a naturall course depend upon the judgement of timing, and by a most Methodicall way, Instructeth the Student how to Resolve all manner of Question contingent unto Man, viz, of Health, Sicknesse, Riches, Marriage, Preferment, Journies, etc..



Your most humble servant,

RAH

[frelkins]

Does anyone else find M's post a tad cryptic?

[Melanchollic]

My apologies 'frelkins'. I will elaborate in somewhat clearer language.

Dummett, in The Game of Tarot gives us a simple and obvious way to clearly understand the 22 Triumphs when he points out that of the dozen or so historical orderings, it is the three virtue cards that differ the most from ordering to ordering, and by removing them, a common and obvious order is easily seen.

The first group of six cards, including the Fool, remain constant with the exception of La Papessa who in one ordering or another is placed in every possible slot above the Juggler and below the Pope. Here we see a medieval social hierarchy.

The second group of six always starts with The Lovers and the Chariot paired, usually with the Chariot trumping the Lovers. Time and Fortune again are paired in every ordering, sometimes reversed in their ordering. The Traitor and Death always end this section. Here is an allegory of human life, from our first love to our death.

The last group of seven is the most constant, always starting with the Devil, then the Tower, the Star/Moon/Sun , then ending with the pair, Judgement and The World, with Judgement trumping the World in the Bolognese deck. Here is a medieval vision of the spiritual cosmos.

Those new to Tarot who want to learn more about the historic meaning of the Triumphs can do so at Michael J. Hurst's excellent sites:

http://www.geocities.com/tarot.histo...cantsTale.html

http://geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/

Michael Hurst draws a parallel between the middle section of the trump cycle and Boccaccio’s Fall of Princes motif. So in my above diagram the middle trumps run reverse to the bottom and top tiers (since they are supposedly falling from of the usual direction). This results in a classic sinister/dexter division, with the left being malefic, and the right being benefic, a common device of Western art.

I speculate that the vertical rows may also contain an intended message, and this may in fact be the reason behind the position of the Papessa, and indeed the three virtues, in the Milanese ordering. (I won't go into that now however.)

As reflected in my diagram the three virtues and the World are separated. The virtues move freely between tiers in the various orderings, and thus seem to have been seen to be apart from any of the three specific tiers, and the speculation and opinion on where they should fall was the main reason the orderings differed.

On the positions of the virtues in the Milanese ordering, Bob O'Neill points out,

"According to the Life of Pythagoras by Iamblicus, the soul was composed of three hierarchical levels. The lowest or animal soul was concerned with appetites and governed by the virtue of Temperance. A second part of the soul was concerned with ambition and power and was governed by the virtue of Strength or Fortitude. The highest soul was the rational soul that sought after wisdom and cultivated the virtue of Justice to balance the parts of the soul and the individual human with other humans and the universe. The three virtues are discussed in three consecutive chapters of Iamblicus which was readily available at the beginning of the 15th century."

http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/virtue


So, the Fool and Juggler (and the cards in the vertical columns above them) could be representative of the lowest soul - the animal soul, the Papess and Empress with the second soul - ambition and power, and the Emperor and Pope with the soul of wisdom. This works even better with the Eastern ordering of the trumps, the so called 'B' ordering -


The Fool/The Juggler = The Soul of Appetites = governance by Temperance

The Empress/The Emperor = The Soul of Will = governance by Fortitude

The Papess/The Pope = The Soul of Wisdom = governance of Justice


Or, as Plato said in The Republic,

"Then we may begin by assuming that there are three classes of men - lovers of wisdom, lovers of honor, lovers of gain?"


Anyway enough background. About the timing question. The A-B alternating timing aspect draws from both the alchemical and geomantic traditions, and is of course totally speculative, though a good deal of thought went into the choices.

The cards labeled A are passive, slow of speed, long of duration, and difficult to change. The cards labeled B are active, fast of speed, short of duration, and change easily.

Taking a querent's question into consideration and applying an appropriate range of possible timings, a general judgement can be predicted with ease. I've had very good results with this simple method.



A Charmed Fool,

RaH

[yaraluna]

Originally Posted by Melanchollic

My apologies 'frelkins'. I will elaborate in somewhat clearer language.

Thank you very much for the background info! interesting.

Anyway enough background. About the timing question. The A-B alternating timing aspect draws from both the alchemical and geomantic traditions, and is of course totally speculative, though a good deal of thought went into the choices.

The cards labeled A are passive, slow of speed, long of duration, and difficult to change. The cards labeled B are active, fast of speed, short of duration, and change easily.

Taking a querent's question into consideration and applying an appropriate range of possible timings, a general judgement can be predicted with ease. I've had very good results with this simple method.

A Charmed Fool,

RaH

thank you. so this method gives you the chance of looking at the speed of when events will happen more than the time (season, month, year, etc). correct? i can certainly see the use of it and will indeed practice this one with my readings.

Rah, do you usually address time questions as a general "fast/slow" timing thing, or do you get to develop that concept into something more specific at times, considering the surrounding cards? know what i mean?

yara

[frelkins]

What puzzles me is the negative, neutral, and positive categories. Because based on the context, it seems to be that all cards could fit in all these categories at different times. . .

[EnriqueEnriquez]

For me, it is useful to divide the cards based on the characters’ postures. Their gaze and/or body position would indicate if they are:

Moving forward: Fov, V, XI, VII, XX, XVIII, XVI, XXI, X

Moving backwards: XIIII, II, VIIII, XIII, I, XVII

Stagnated/Static: IIII, XVIII, VI, III, XII, VIII, XV

These considerations, base don the Noblet, may vary depending on the specific deck.

[Melanchollic]

Originally Posted by yaraluna

Rah, do you usually address time questions as a general "fast/slow" timing thing, or do you get to develop that concept into something more specific at times, considering the surrounding cards? know what i mean?

yara

Hi yaraluna,



Using this method, and through clarification of a querant's situation, a general period of time can be deduced.

For a standard cross spread of four cards you can get five timings -



AAAA - very slow, very long, extremely unchanging

BAAA - slow, long, relatively unchanging

BBAA - middling speed, duration, etc.

BBBA - fast, short, relatively changeable

BBBB - very fast, very short, highly changeable



Then the diviner determines the possible range an event would likely happen, and divide it into five periods.

Let's say I'm expecting a package delivered sometime today, but I need to go out and run some errands and would like to know when the package will arrive. I know that the delivery man works from 9 to 6. I also know that his route is such that he can't make it to my residence earlier than 10:30. So my options are -



AAAA - From 4:30 through 6:00

BAAA - From 3:00 through 4:30

BBAA - From 1:30 through 3:00

BBBA - From 12:00 through 1:30

BBBB - From 10:30 through 12:00



I also use the device that the more malefic cards that are present in a spread, the more the that time will be inconvenienced for the querent, the more benefic cards present, the more the timing will be convenient for the querent. Assuming of course the inquiry is strictly about timing.



Cheers,
R
A
H


.

[yaraluna]

one thing i noticed with your ABA spread is that it spells ABBA which is "father" in biblical terms.