RWS- Strength and Justice Switch of Placements

[Hooked on TdM]

So, my son has the RWS deck and I'm trying to guide him to learn his deck as I learn my Marseille deck. Not the easiest thing to do, let me tell you. Right now I'm working on the MA and different ways to lay it out to further understand it (much thanks to Eugim! and Moonbow.) So if I want to use the one layout of two rows, one going from 1 to 10, the next 11 to 20, I have to switch his Strength and Justice, in the RWS, to make it work.

So either this just is not recommended for the RWS, or I'm missing something. Why did they switch the cards? If this is not recommended, then someone HELP ME! I know nothing of this deck and I'm trying to guide a 13 year old to use it!

*pulling out hair*

Hooked

[karenquilter]

The Order of the Golden Dawn switched the order of Justice & Strength over a hundred years ago. They had their reasons & you can read them, but I think it was mostly to add their own touch.

The earliest decks don't have numbers on the majors, so we don't know how they were ordered.

I don't think that the number of the card, or how they are ordered, is important. I think that how each person relates to the images on the cards is the important thing, and that is going to be unique to each person.

[The crowned one]

That was the Golden Dawns doing( Mathers or Westcott)...they made a rectified deck for those initiates at the level of "the order of the ruby rose and Cross of gold" It was to do with the sephirothic sphears on the tree of life and astrology I think.

[rwcarter]

I believe that all the cards should interrelate to one another. So if you're laying out 1-10 and 11-20, then you only increase your understanding of tarot by seeing how the Magician relates to both Strength (as #11) and Justice (as #11) and how Strength (as #8) and Justice (as #8) both relate to the Moon.

Tangentially to this discussion, I have a number of different ways of laying out the Major Arcana cards to study them and how they interrelate to one another. I started a thread here to discuss different methods.

HTH,
Rodney

[Hooked on TdM]

Thanks everyone. I will look at the links provided and hopefully find something my son can use.

Btw: the earliest decks (17th century) did have numbered major arcana.

Hooked

[Sulis]

I just switch them back...

I use a few RWS based decks for reading and I cannot read with Justice at number 11, Justice should be at number 8 in my humble opinion.
I just change the numbering so it's back to how it should be

[MeeWah]

Hooked on TdM: This quandary not uncommon & the subject of other discussions.

Depending on the deck & whether it follows the tradition of the RWS, Marseilles or Thoth, sometimes do the opposite of Sulis for the same reason. & because see Strength as 8, Justice as 11 based on a numeric view of those numbers & automatically use numbers towards the interpretive. That I used the RWS for decades to the exclusion of other decks may contribute to the approach, too.

Otherwise, I follow the numbering of the deck & leave it be, as in the Marseille decks or those following the Marseilles tradition.

Decks following the Thoth tradition usually also have 8 as Strength, 11 as Justice.

Hope I have not muddied the view to excess.

[Aeon418]

Originally Posted by MeeWah

Decks following the Thoth tradition usually also have 8 as Strength, 11 as Justice.

The Thoth follows the Marseilles order with Adjustment (Justice) 8, and Lust (Strength) 11.

[Aladdin]

In my opinion the Golden Dawn were right to place the balancing scales of Justice in the middle of the major arcana as a logical pivotal point.
Somewhere i read a thing about Greek thrones of stone or something which hardly seemed logical as to why Justice should not be number eleven.
Perhaps there is some merit in the notion of non numbered major arcana, but where does this leave numerology in accordance with the tarot, if indeed it has any place at all ? I remain open minded.

[Berbatov]

Originally Posted by Hooked on TdM

So either this just is not recommended for the RWS, or I'm missing something. Why did they switch the cards? If this is not recommended, then someone HELP ME! I know nothing of this deck and I'm trying to guide a 13 year old to use it!

*pulling out hair*

Hooked

It isn't that it isn't recommended, just simply that A. E. Waite changed the positions in this particular deck so that there is a neater correspondence between Golden Dawn astrological ordering. Justice now corresponds with Libra (scales) and Strength now corresponds with Leo (lion).

You could simply change them back to their TdM places, and/or maybe rewrite the numbers, either directly, or with the aid of a sticker.

What you should remember though, is that the RWS has its own tradition, and that that the places were changed for a reason.





Berb