Ares the God or Aries the Ram?

[Zephyros]

Sorry if this has been asked here before, I don't come to these forums a lot, but I am making tentative steps into astrology, at least with regards to the Tree of Life, and I am a little confused as to how the mythology of the Golden Fleece fits in with the sign, or whether to consider both the Ram and the God of War simultaneously. Are they symbols of one another?

 

[dadsnook2000]

Ram or God?

The Ram is the symbol of the sign of Aries and carries with it meanings of spring, new growth, passion and the enjoyment of physical strength and growth.

Aries or Mars, whatever name you wish to use, is (in myth and legend) the God of War. Astrologers attribute anger, fighting, war, the bringing of blood and heat, and one having bravery.

While the golden fleece comes from the Ram, the taker of the fleece is the man-God. In terms of the story, both are required as the prize is worth the effort, and the effort deserves the prize. So, can the story serve various needs and ends? Or, once the story is over, does the Ram and the fleece continue in their way, time, and place while the man-God continues within his myths and his own existence--whatever it may be?

They are entwined only within the story IMHO.

If you step back and consider what Astrology is, what the Tarot is, what the Tree of Life is you will likely see that each is their own system of knowledge, study, understanding. Mixing one with another is not a smooth, perhaps not even a rough process. Instead, it may only be a casual possibility when one adds or highlights a meaning in the other system for the purposes of comparison and as a memory aid. Dave

 

[Zephyros]

Thanks, you've made it much clearer. I suppose the keyword uniting them is "virility" as in growth, movement, manhood, perhaps sperm, perhaps authority. In terms of the Emperor, this fits quite well. This also goes well with the Emperor's sulphur. Or am I still on the wrong track?

Symbols have so many facets, it can be difficult deciding which one is meant by which attribution, but you've been very, very helpful in directing me. Thanks!

 

[Richard]

DISCLAIMER: The following is not astrology. It is using astrological/mythological concepts as convenient metaphors to describe the characteristics of Major Arcana.

1. Aries is the Ram, a sign of the zodiac.

2. Ares is the Greek equivalent of the Roman god Mars, the god of war. The planet Mars is named after the god.

3. The planet Mars rules the sign Aries.

4. The astrological attribution of the Emperor (IV) is Aries. This is actually metaphorical, not astrology. The Emperor has the sort of personality traits which we associate with the sign Aries.

5. The Tower (XVI) has the attribution Mars, because it represents an upheaval which may be similar to what war does. Also, it represents a release of potential energy (symbolized by lightning or an earthquake), just as war happens when the tension between two factions reaches the breaking point. (The Tower is one of my favorite cards, along with Temperance.)

6. As for Temperance (XIV), Sagittarius is aiming straight up the Pillar of Balance through Tiphareth to Kether, and now I had really better shut up, as this is way off topic.

 

[Minderwiz]

I am a little confused as to how the mythology of the Golden Fleece fits in with the sign, or whether to consider both the Ram and the God of War simultaneously. Are they symbols of one another?

I agree with what Dave says, but there are a couple of afterthoughts I'd like to add. A lot of modern Astrology does indeed see the God (or at least the planet Mars) and Aries as being essentially the same thing and you will come across the statement Mars = Aries = First House. as you go through your first steps in Astrology.

However that's not the position of the Hellenisitic Astrologers who founded horoscopic Astrology, nor was it the position of any Astrologer up till the twentieth Century. Mars (planet/god) was seen as being quite distinct from the Sign of Aries.

Mars (Ares in the Greek tradition) had two 'domicilies' in the heavens. Aries was his domicile by day but Scorpio was his domicile by night. Dave's Aries list is if you like Mars acting in the context of the Day. Mars as God of War can be the Impulsive believer in frontal attacks with all guns blazing in a 'Let's get 'em now' context. But at night you can't fight a battle - it's too dark to have any hope of keeping control over what's going on (at least up to the invention of modern communications). That's why you attack just before dawn = it gives the element of surprise and as the day dawns the ability to see and control the course of the battle.

By night the God of War has to be more circumspect and cautious, different strategies are required. Stealth, manoeuvering into position for the eventual attack, surrounding or outflanking your enemy, or simple retrenchment and construction of defensive positions.. Much of what is being done is consolidation waiting for the moment when an attack is possible - it's no surprise that Scorpio as a fixed sign should symbolise this form of nocturnal warfare.

The point is that Mars/Ares is not simply a one dimensional god, there's more to him than 'Aries mode'. Oddly (or perhaps not) the Hellenistic Astrologer of 2,000 years ago, when Mars/Ares was seen as a nocturnal planet, rather than a diurnal. The Charge of the Light Brigade, which is perhaps the epitome of a Mars in Aries event, was described by a French general at the time as 'Magnificent but it's not war' - The war was won by Mars in Scorpio - by seige, and eventually seizing the best ground.

So what type of srategies does Jason use in Colchis, full frontal attack or more subtle and 'sideways' ones?

 

[Zephyros]

DISCLAIMER: The following is not astrology. It is using astrological/mythological concepts as convenient metaphors to describe the characteristics of Major Arcana.

I get the feeling that's what the Golden Dawn did in any case, isn't it? It's certainly what I'm trying to do

In any case, thank you all for your replies. From what I gather, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Mars and Aries are two aspects of a core idea, that of manhood and virility. On the one hand, Aries the Ram signifies the building aspects of the sign; spring, growth, as I mentioned virility before, movement, sulphur, a "constructive" fire, authority, maturity, battle-tested, restive, perhaps close to his sister Athena, etc. This fits well with the attribution to the Emperor. However, it carries within it the seeds of all these aspects in the destructive sense; authoritarianism, power for the sake of it, needless violence, etc.

Mars, on the other hand, seems to relate to the "downsides" of war and fire (but in a "good" way); purification, destruction, conflict, elements exploding, volcanoes, untamed power of nature, restriction and formation, perhaps even a connection to Vulcan (?).

This is probably getting off topic, but I hadn't connected the Tower to the Emperor; it almost seems as though they are brothers (of sorts).

 

[dadsnook2000]

Mars has other attributes as well

Don't be overly quick to paint Mars with all of the blood and gore or war, or as having a disposition of aggressiveness. Mars can have quieter but equally important strengths.

Bob Baker, the famous (in the U.S.) TV game show host has Mars exactly on his Ascendant. He is the perfect example of charm, personality, sensitive presentation and manager of his guests so that they feel comfortable and are not confused by the fast paced game show routines.

How does Mars show up in his case? By his presence. Nobody upstages Bob Barker, he is an example of gracious control.

When not engaged in TV hosting, Bob Barker is a fierce animal rights activist. He funded a ship for Greenpeace from his own resources, contributes 100's of 1,000s of dollars to animal support projects, and gives most of his own time and energy to helping animals of all kinds in all situations. Others, such as Betty White, are equally involved. Betty's Mars is within a few degrees of her chart's IC angle.

Dave

 

[Zephyros]

That's fascinating. I guess the blood and gore of Mars is metaphorical, and can be manifested in outward charm and personality? Mars rules Scorpio, would this mean... hmmm... for lack of a better way of putting it, "aggressive charm?" I don't mean aggressive as in pushy, but outward and dominant.

Do you mean the host of The Price is Right? I didn't even know he was still alive, he must be older that the Pyramids!

 

[Richard]

......This is probably getting off topic, but I hadn't connected the Tower to the Emperor; it almost seems as though they are brothers (of sorts).

Yes, indeed, and in the Thelemic version of the Tree, as 'vectors' they determine the Netzach-Hod-Yesod triad, a dynamic nexus of energy flow.