Ascendant near the sign cusp

[MareSaturni]

Hi!

I was doing the chart of a friend of mine (using the Placidus table of houses), and he was born at 8:30 am of July 30th, 1986 (51w31'09, 29s10'17). It was a C-section birth, so the hour was pretty exact. In his chart, his Sun is in Leo and his ASC is at 16' Virgo.

Well, that's pretty close to the cusp so I am unsure. I think that using other house divisions methods, his ASC could easily jump back to Leo...

I know him quite well, and honestly Virgo ASC seems to fit much better than a double Leo - he has a very strong 'earth' component to his personality. But still, I could be seeing what I want to see. His Moon is in Taurus and he has at least one planet (of the 7 traditional planets, none of the outer ones) in each Earth sign, which could be the responsible for this perception I have of him.

So... when the ASC is so close to the cusp, how do you known if it's in the right place? Is there any way you can test it?


Thank you!

 

[dadsnook2000]

Quadrant house systems

When using any of the quadrant house systems, the Ascendant will not move one small bit of a degree or a sign when you use one house system over another. You need to realize that this bit about signs being absolute and cusps being cut-off points is nonsense.

Noel Tyl, the very well known American astrologer who has written so many books and appeared around the world in lectures and conferences, has an Ascendant of 29+ Gemini. My Ascendant is 0 Cancer. Our two Ascendants are within minutes of each other. If you were to look at our photos, we could be brothers, maybe non-identical twins. Yet, he was born several months away from my birth date.

Whatever influence signs, degrees and cusps have, it is very subtle, it flows smoothly from one basic influence to another. There is not sharp division of influences.

We are what the chart shows. Dave

 

[Minderwiz]

With any quadrant system the Ascendant and MC will be same - only the intermediate house cusps differ. With the Ascendantbeing so early the sign, there's always the chance of error, even with a C section or supposedly accurate timing. On average a sign rises one degree every 4 minutes, that's 15 minutes of arc every minute of time and Winter signs rise faster than Summer ones. So one minute of delay in recording the birth and he could be a Leo Ascendant.

Yes there are ways of checking but none of the are fool proof and many are quite complex, such as testing life events against a rectified birth time. There are various software programs that enable you to do that but they are hideously expensive. It can be done manually but it,s time consuming.

The other main way is to attempt to judge from corporature - body type. There are various descriptions of the body type associareevwith the signs. Using Lilly:

Leo: Great round head, big eyes,quick sighted, a full and large body and is of more than of middle stature, broad shoulders, narrow sides, yellow or dark flaxen curly hair, ruddy faced.

Virgo: Slender body of average height, ruddy brown complexion, black hair, lovely but not beautiful, small shrill voice, short is arms and legs,well spoken.

Now that seems reasonably straightforward but in Book III Lily says that he judges form and shape of the body from not only the sign Ascending but also it's ruler, the planet or planets in or aspecting the Ascendant, the Sun and Moon, the season of the year (of birth) and any fixed stars in the Ascendant or near its cusp. Now that clearly isn't straightforward but it does seem much more tailored to the individual, rather than just generic descrptions.

Lilly wrote before the development of genetics science but he did recognise that ethnicity would also affect body type and appearance. He adds that you need to allow for the country and climate in which the person is born.

All of that suggests that at most the Ascendant sign only makes a small contribution to body type

For the moment my advice would be to use the Ascendant you have and only move it back a degree into Leo if you become convinced it's wrong from your analysis over time.

 

[MareSaturni]

When using any of the quadrant house systems, the Ascendant will not move one small bit of a degree or a sign when you use one house system over another. You need to realize that this bit about signs being absolute and cusps being cut-off points is nonsense.

Yes, you are absolutely right!
I had forgotten about this when looking at the chart and posting my question, I apologize!

Whatever influence signs, degrees and cusps have, it is very subtle, it flows smoothly from one basic influence to another. There is not sharp division of influences.

That is interesting... so you say that the transition to Leo and Virgo is actually not a 'jumping' one, but one that flows. Perhaps an ASC close to a cusp means that you have something in-between the two influences - whatever they may be?

With any quadrant system the Ascendant and MC will be same - only the intermediate house cusps differ. With the Ascendantbeing so early the sign, there's always the chance of error, even with a C section or supposedly accurate timing. On average a sign rises one degree every 4 minutes, that's 15 minutes of arc every minute of time and Winter signs rise faster than Summer ones. So one minute of delay in recording the birth and he could be a Leo Ascendant.

Yes, this is what I think. Although, like I said, he does strike me as a Rising Virgo kind. But indeed, we are never 100% of the exact minute of a birth, unless you keep checking the clock... and most of moms and dads have other things in mind during the birth of their children, lol!

The other main way is to attempt to judge from corporature - body type. There are various descriptions of the body type associareevwith the signs. Using Lilly:

Leo: Great round head, big eyes,quick sighted, a full and large body and is of more than of middle stature, broad shoulders, narrow sides, yellow or dark flaxen curly hair, ruddy faced.

Virgo: Slender body of average height, ruddy brown complexion, black hair, lovely but not beautiful, small shrill voice, short is arms and legs,well spoken.
[...]
Lilly wrote before the development of genetics science but he did recognise that ethnicity would also affect body type and appearance. He adds that you need to allow for the country and climate in which the person is born.

All of that suggests that at most the Ascendant sign only makes a small contribution to body type

That is interesting... I'd say he has a bit of both, lol! He had a big round head, blue eyes, dark hair, he's not tall but has broad shoulders, ta white skin that easily gets tanned and a rather shrill voice.

But if Lilly himself said we should take many factors into consideration, then indeed the ASC cannot be used alone to determine one's physical appearance. Specially in Brazil, where there's a lot of mix.

For the moment my advice would be to use the Ascendant you have and only move it back a degree into Leo if you become convinced it's wrong from your analysis over time.

Thank you, I'll do this. I think I'll keep working considering this ASC in Virgo, but if in the end the chart feels too inaccurate, then I'll switch to Leo.

 

[Minderwiz]

I'm always suspicious of any birth time which is quoted as either an exact hour, or half hour. There is a very good chance that he was born a minute or two earlier and one minute earlier shifts the Ascendant back to 29 Leo 55. Venus is still a first house planet and it is still in the particle trine to the Part of Fortune.

So if you do try any other time, simply use 08:29

 

[MareSaturni]

I'm always suspicious of any birth time which is quoted as either an exact hour, or half hour. There is a very good chance that he was born a minute or two earlier and one minute earlier shifts the Ascendant back to 29 Leo 55. Venus is still a first house planet and it is still in the particle trine to the Part of Fortune.

So if you do try any other time, simply use 08:29

Yes, I understand why doubt exact hours... because one could be born at, I don't know, 8:27am and the doctors puts 8:30am because it's almost the same. Almost the same - but not in Astrology.

I remember a thread we had in the past, about planets being at the ending of a House (like 1º or 2º close to the cusp) being treat as if placed in the following House already. Astrodientist does that with their charts. I suppose such thing does not happen to ASC, does it? The ASC belongs to sign it is in even if it's less than degree close to the cusp?

I must say that Dave's idea makes sense here... perhaps so close to the borderline the influences of the two signs flow into each other more smoothly. Perhaps ASC placed in the middle of a sign has a stronger 'flavor' of that sign than the one placed too close to the cusps...?