Astrological association to cards

LovelyMissAries

Where did they come from? I have another thread going on in the Astrology forum, and Minderwiz mentioned being sensitive to energies in buildings, and having Pluto, Mars, and Saturn in the 12th. Talking about buildings made me think of The Tower card, and I kinda wondered why Scorpio (since Pluto rules Scorpio) wasn't associated with it but Aries was. Pluto is the planet all about "death" and rebuilding something which to me is part of what the Tower represents. Or why isn't The Emperor associated with Capricorn? Or The Devil with Scorpio? Basically my question is who dictated the signs to each card, and why? I'm sure there's books on this subject, I'm just not sure how to find them.
 

Zephyros

I depends which deck you're talking about. I myself asked this question about the RWS in this thread and got several interesting answers. I found the Golden Dawn's Book T especially illuminating. Unfortunately Waite didn't really give too much information about his deck, but being Golden Dawn based, it followed Golden Dawn attributions.

The Thoth attributions are explained at length in the Book of Thoth, although it can be a difficult book, but the DuQuette book explaining it is much more accessible.

I'd say read Book T, and then both decks will open up to you, they're very similar
 

Thirteen

Keeping it Orderly

Where did they come from?
For all intents and purposes, the Golden Dawn dictated the zodiac/tarot association that we're most familiar with. We're most familiar with it because Waite used them, and as his deck is the one that is copied by other deck creators 99% of the time, those are the associations you get. Keep in mind also that Waite wanted things orderly. So the Zodiac is given to cards in order. This is why you get Leo for Strength at #8 and Libra for Justice at #11. Because Waite isn't going to put Libra before Leo. Quite possibly, in answer to some of your questions, if the Devil had been #4 instead of the Emperor then the Devil would be Aries and the Emperor would be Capricorn simply because Waite wouldn't put Capricorn first. But, then again, the Golden Dawn did have something to do with numbering the majors and putting them in the order they are in. Most tarot decks prior to that did not have numbered majors.

Crowley and this Thoth deck don't quite concur with Waite--and don't much care about mixing things up given the number/order of the cards. Crowley also, of course, goes into much more transparent detail about each zodiac on each card, not just associations with the majors. But he, too, was part of the Golden Dawn and had a hand in these associations. Prior to the Golden Dawn, there weren't many such associations beyond the obvious (Sun for "The Sun" and Moon for "The Moon") but there have been long running arguments and disagreements about them, especially when you get to certain complications like having Jupiter and Juno instead of the Emperor and Empress as some decks do.

...The Tower card, and I kinda wondered why Scorpio (since Pluto rules Scorpio) wasn't associated with it but Aries was.
The Tower isn't about "death" it's about violence. Hence, Mars (the planet). The reason it's not about "Death" is because the Tower is a falsehood, it was never alive, never real. Only what you thought was true about it dies, unlike in the Death card where something that really existed comes to an end, leaving a void. Furthermore, in the Tower card the revelation is violent--sudden and unexpected. THAT is the essential nature of the card. Not that something died, but that you had a violent revelation and all you held as true (the Tower) has fallen down. Feeling betrayed--which you may feel once you have this realization, is not the same as feeling like something has died. After all, death can be welcome or peaceful. The Tower is never peaceful. Hence "Mars." A war within yourself and with whatever made you believe that lie.

Or why isn't The Emperor associated with Capricorn?
Why should he be? The Emperor is about leadership, and Aries is the most "Leadership" of all the zodiac signs--it literally leads the whole zodiac :D Capricorn, as a cardinal sign, can be a leader, but the sign isn't all about leadership like Aries. Furthermore, on the zodiac's "maturity" scale Aries is in the "infant" stage. This is very much the Emperor, especially ill-dignified. What he wants, he gets, and he is doted upon. The baby rules the home, right? and the Emperor can be babyishly demanding and impatient. Capricorn, a more mature sign about ambition, patience and acquiring things, is certainly better suited to the Devil.
 

LovelyMissAries

The Tower isn't about "death" it's about violence. Hence, Mars (the planet).
Not death in the same way we view the "Death" card but I meant change. Death AND Tower are both about change, which you elaborate in below. However, Mars is co-ruled by Scorpio too, so perhaps The Tower can be represented by either/or depending on surrounding cards?

The reason it's not about "Death" is because the Tower is a falsehood, it was never alive, never real. Only what you thought was true about it dies, unlike in the Death card where something that really existed comes to an end, leaving a void. Furthermore, in the Tower card the revelation is violent--sudden and unexpected. THAT is the essential nature of the card. Not that something died, but that you had a violent revelation and all you held as true (the Tower) has fallen down. Feeling betrayed--which you may feel once you have this realization, is not the same as feeling like something has died. After all, death can be welcome or peaceful. The Tower is never peaceful. Hence "Mars." A war within yourself and with whatever made you believe that lie.

Well stated! Though the meaning also depends on the card reader themselves, does it not?


Why should he be? The Emperor is about leadership, and Aries is the most "Leadership" of all the zodiac signs--it literally leads the whole zodiac :D Capricorn, as a cardinal sign, can be a leader, but the sign isn't all about leadership like Aries. Furthermore, on the zodiac's "maturity" scale Aries is in the "infant" stage. This is very much the Emperor, especially ill-dignified. What he wants, he gets, and he is doted upon. The baby rules the home, right? and the Emperor can be babyishly demanding and impatient. Capricorn, a more mature sign about ambition, patience and acquiring things, is certainly better suited to the Devil.

Sure he's about leadership, but he's also set in his ways. He's an old man who likes dictating and being at the top - are those not Capricorn traits as well as Aries? Aries is always classified as the "baby" of the zodiac, so why attribute him to the Emperor of all cards? Of course, I'm not saying there's no sense in Emperor being rep. by Aries just that... maybe it's time for an update?
 

Thirteen

The Warrior King

Not death in the same way we view the "Death" card but I meant change. Death AND Tower are both about change, which you elaborate in below. However, Mars is co-ruled by Scorpio too, so perhaps The Tower can be represented by either/or depending on surrounding cards?
It's Mars. Which means an astrologer would do well to give it both scorpio/aries at the same time, not one or other other...IF the astrologer isn't giving Scorpio the planet Pluto. Astrology can get sticky :) Probably easier to just stick to it being Mars.

And yes, of course it's about change. But so is the Wheel, and the Universe. These are all cards of change. That doesn't mean they all belong to Scorpio. Mars is the type of change that the Tower embodies. Scorpio is the type of change that the Death card embodies. Just as Jupiter is the type of change that the Wheel card embodies, and Saturn is the type of change that the Universe card embodies. Yes?
Though the meaning also depends on the card reader themselves, does it not?
It depends on a lot of things. The question asked, the sitter behind the question, the position of the card in the spread, and, yes, on the reader. But while we'll grant that the Tower looks like an ending, and implies that something is over, there has to be a difference between what the Tower is about and what Death is about otherwise why have the two cards? Why not just Death or just the Tower?

A good tarot reader must see the differences as well as the similarities between cards. And believe me, there are a lot of similarities in meaning between a lot of these cards. But the differences are essential in order to know why you got that particular card in answer to the question rather than the other. And in the case of the Tower vs. Death, one of those differences may be that the thing is not as "dead" as you think. Something that falls down may be broken rather than dead. Another difference is that the Tower doesn't say how you'll feel after it falls down--you might find yourself delighted to see that building gone as it finally allows you to see the sky. The Death card, on the other hand, not only emphasizes an end--no question--but that you'll feel empty and lost afterwards; there will be a mourning period before you find something new to fill the void. So we must be careful not to simply say to a sitter "something is going to end" when we see the Tower, as we would if we got the Death card. They are similar, but not the same.

Sure he's about leadership, but he's also set in his ways. He's an old man who likes dictating and being at the top
Old? Was Alexander the Great old? (Now there was a perfect, baby-faced Aries-type!) Was Napoleon old? (Another baby-faced Aries-type) There's nothing that says the Emperor must be old...nor that if he is old, that he's old in spirit.
Aries is always classified as the "baby" of the zodiac, so why attribute him to the Emperor of all cards?
Because an Emperor--ill-dignified--is exactly like a baby. Like Ivan the Terrible. They throw tantrums, they scream and cry and demand. They are doted upon and spoilt. They are given anything they want when they want it--and no one in the house can tell them "no." That is how the Emperor is like a baby. But right-side up, he's like the Aries that is the leader of the Zodiac, filled with energy and daring, filled with charisma that makes people follow him, shout his name, do what he asks them to do, and create an Empire for him to rule over. He is, like the best "infants," irresistible :D

The "infant" energy of Aries motivates people into action. The shrewd, determined, but often dour and cautious Capricorn can't do that. Capricorn is like the infamous, American Civil War General George McClellan who was so cautious that he wouldn't take his army into battle or attack--President Lincoln famously said of him, "If he's not using the army, may I use it?" Aries is General Grant, who charges in full-throddle, ready to use all he's got, every drop of energy to win. And he does.

That is the important thing to remember about the Emperor, why he's pictured wearing armor, with an eagle and sometimes weapons. He created his Empire through conquest, by proving himself indomitable. His Empire might be stable now--as stable as his very solid throne...but he's still a warrior underneath. He doesn't rule by being cautious or careful or slow like Capricorn. He commands his Empire as he commanded armies. With supreme confidence, a brilliant battle plan, and aggression. Hence, Aries. :royal: