Court cards and majors in a spread?

[eurydicesdreams]

I know when doing a reading that I can look for patterns of numbers, of suits, of reinforcing Majors, for finding deeper meaning. I can look at the relationships between positions. I can look at how many court cards v. how many pips v. how many majors.
But what general relationship is there to be found between the court cards and the majors? I mean this as a question of "rule of thumb." I've been using http://www.learntarot.com as my primary source for card meanings, and there is a section under each card regarding reinforcing or opposing cards, but what's the general rule for this?

Hope this makes sense.

 

[nisaba]

Well, they're all Tarot cards ... <smile>

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean.Read each card as it falls in the position it fall in, then look at the cards around it so see if you can link them into a narrative.

You'll find Majors, courts and pips all work well together.

 

[Thirteen]

But what general relationship is there to be found between the court cards and the majors?

I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean. There is a general rule of thumb that Majors count for more (or hit harder) in a reading than minors. So Majors are brighter lights and louder messages. Pay attention to them first. And there is one "rule of thumb" about courts and Majors: the Fool relates to Pages, the Empress to Queens and the Emperor to Kings. And I don't know if any card relates to the Knights. That's the only rule I know connecting Majors to courts outside of matching them up according to zodiac signs (which is very idiosyncratic as no one can ever agree on which zodiac sign should be with which court card outside of fire signs for wands, water signs for cups, earth signs for pents and air signs for swords).

Each reader finds certain patterns that speak to them. Some notice number patterns first, some notice elemental dignities first, etc. You go with what stands out to you, and this may vary reading to reading...or not. The question isn't what patterns you *can* find because, as you say, there are a lot of different ways to find patterns, but what patterns capture your personal attention.

Trust that the tarot works in that it finds the best way to give it's message to you, personally. So if you are likely to notice numbers before anything else, then that is how the tarot will offer its message to you. If you notice suits first, then that's how it will do it.

Does that help?

 

[eurydicesdreams]

@Thirteen: yes! that does help a lot, and you got exactly what i meant with

There is one "rule of thumb" about courts and Majors: the Fool relates to Pages, the Empress to Queens and the Emperor to Kings. And I don't know if any card relates to the Knights. That's the only rule I know connecting Majors to courts.

that was what I meant, and from there can you elaborate a little more on how they relate?

i guess overall what i meant is, if a court is usually either a person to whom those characteristics apply OR the energies that i should be channeling, what is the relationship between, say, the Fool and the Page of Pentacles? ack. i'm being more confusing than before.

i do try to construct a narrative around my readings. so what I'm asking, i think (??), is, if i get a Major with a "personality" (like the Fool or the Empress, as opposed to Justice or Chariot), do I just hit up my intuition or is there a pattern I can draw on as well? I like having those patterns in the back of my head to draw on while I'm doing intuitive readings, like knowing that a reading with lots of Majors means that the situation is an important milestone in my life and kind of out of my hands, etc.

 

[eurydicesdreams]

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean.Read each card as it falls in the position it fall in, then look at the cards around it so see if you can link them into a narrative.

That's what I want to do, and I guess what I'm trying to get at is finding extra depth in a narrative by looking for links between the Majors and the Courts, to which I haven't seen much linkage attributed. But my thinking is that since everything in Tarot is thought through so carefully, it's hard to believe that there isn't some way to read a Major as reinforcing a Court, or a Court as a different aspect of a Major… or something. idk. i'm a n00b, what do i know?

 

[Thirteen]

that was what I meant, and from there can you elaborate a little more on how they relate?

i guess overall what i meant is, if a court is usually either a person to whom those characteristics apply OR the energies that i should be channeling, what is the relationship between, say, the Fool and the Page of Pentacles?

Essentially, all Pages are mini-Fools. They are beginners, they are curious and open, they know nothing yet, are blank slates, and, of course, might do something very foolish. Which is to say, that the Page/Pents is the "Fool" of the Pentacles suit. He's the one who is most likely to make a foolish mistake with, say, money as it's the suit of Pents. But he's also the one who, like the Fool, still finds a childlike wonder in all the Pentacles represent and an eager desire to learn about that suit.

What distinguishes the Page/Pents from the Fool is that the Fool is the avatar, the archetype of all Fools (or children/beginners if you like), and the Page/Pent is more specifically the Fool of Pents (money, health, luck, work). The minor is relatively specific, the Major is general/universal.

Likewise with the Empress and Emperor. The Empress is the avatar of all Queens. What they all have in common is embodied within her--the fact that they nurture the suit, for example. The Emperor is the avatar of all the Kings, what they all have in common--like the fact that they are the highest authority on the suit.

Yes?

 

[eurydicesdreams]

Yes!
So in a reading with the Page of Pents and the Fool (sticking with my original example), does the Fool generalize the Page or does the Page specify the Fool? That is, are we talking about the whole situation being suffused with the energies of Fool-ishness regarding Pentacles, or is there a particularly foolish Page-type person involved in the situation? I know, I know, it all depends on the situation and whether there is someone involved who has Page of Pents-like attributes, so what if you have a reading with the Empress and the Queen of Pentacles? I like the Queen of Pents an awful lot, she's kind of my Virgoan ideal of what I'll be if I ever finish growing up ;P so I would instantly identify with her. Not with the Empress. So what would the implications be of that interaction? What would the Empress be saying about the Queen of Pents?

Also, why no Knight-Major associations? And why are the Magician and the High Priestess left out? Could we say that the Knight has attributes of both M and HP, since he's half-grown and not all the way finished developing into his full suit?

 

[Thirteen]

So in a reading with the Page of Pents and the Fool (sticking with my original example), does the Fool generalize the Page or does the Page specify the Fool? That is, are we talking about the whole situation being suffused with the energies of Fool-ishness regarding Pentacles, or is there a particularly foolish Page-type person involved in the situation? I know, I know, it all depends on the situation

And the question, and the person asking the question, and what position each of the cards are in, and what other cards are also in the spread.... BUT remember what I said before (general rule)--Majors trump minors. So I think most readers would feel that the Fool generalizes the Page rather than the Page specifying the Fool.

so what if you have a reading with the Empress and the Queen of Pentacles? ...What would the Empress be saying about the Queen of Pents?

Again, Major trumps minor. It could say that the Queen/Pents will start out specific but become general, that she might spread out, her influence becoming wider reaching--think of it like a minor queen of a country marrying the Emperor and now she's Empress of the whole Empire rather than just Queen of that country.

Also, why no Knight-Major associations? And why are the Magician and the High Priestess left out? Could we say that the Knight has attributes of both M and HP, since he's half-grown and not all the way finished developing into his full suit?

There may be a Knight association that I don't know about. Someone here might well know better than I. In theory, it ought to be the Magician, as he's sometimes associated with Mercury and the Knights are Air and, like Mercury, messengers (Knight/Pents is Air of Earth--i.e., fast moving, communicates the suit, etc.). But then that association fails when we get to the Empress as she's Earth and the Queens are Water (Queen/Pents is Water of Earth--i.e., flowing, offering the empathy of the suit, etc.).

And the Fool is usually associated with Air as well, but Pages are elementally Earth. So the association seems to be less a matter of element then of archetype. The Fool is the ultimate child, and so the Pages, being "children" of the suit fall under him. The Empress/Emperor are the ultimate Queen/King and so Queens/Kings fall under them. But there really is no Knight avatar in the Majors.

 

[SunChariot]

I know when doing a reading that I can look for patterns of numbers, of suits, of reinforcing Majors, for finding deeper meaning. I can look at the relationships between positions. I can look at how many court cards v. how many pips v. how many majors.
But what general relationship is there to be found between the court cards and the majors? I mean this as a question of "rule of thumb." I've been using http://www.learntarot.com as my primary source for card meanings, and there is a section under each card regarding reinforcing or opposing cards, but what's the general rule for this?

Hope this makes sense.

I don't tend to look for those kinds of relationships when reading. But in general, as rule of thumb, for me Majors are about important life lessons our lives are currently working to send us. And Courts for me are about the stage of development we are in, perhaps in regards to learning the life lessons that life is trying to teach us at that time...the lessons represented by the Majors. Where we are in the progression of learning the lesson

What I do now is to have the Court represent the querent (or the person the question is about if that is not the querent) as so:
Page=A complete newbie who is facing something completely new in his life that he never even imagined before.
Knight=someone who is still facing somethign for the first time in his life, but he has had some time to prepare himself and learn about it first.
Queen=a person who has mastered what she is facing (reprsented by the suit itself) in a specific way. Through sharing and collaboration and making group decisions. It's about teamwork and working together towards common goals
King=a person who has mastered what they are facing, but internally. It is inner mastery, conquering any inner obstacles winning out over them.

Then add in the suits...EG Page of Swords=the quernt is thinking something new that he never thought of before. Page of Wands=the querent is trying to create something new that they never have before, have never even thought of before and they just are kindof lost and don't know how or where to start yet. ...

So combined for example Justice and the Knight of Swords, could be that the univesre is trying to teach the querent more about Justice and what is fair and what is not. AND that that querent is facing some new expereinces on that now that are meant to teach him. He has had some time to think about the issue beforehand, but being in this novel situation now is challenging his beliefs and teaching him totally new ways of viewing it. He's still within the learning process, the lessons are not complete and he has not yet mastered them. He's still in the learning phase...just as an example.

Babs

 

[Richard]

I would tend to associate Knghts with Majors having Air signs: Lovers (Gemini), Justice (Libra), Star (Aquarius).

Similarly, Kings would be associated with majors having Fire signs, Queens with water signs, Pages with Earth signs. Thus there would be at least three majors associated with each court card.

The element cards could also be considered: Fool (Air), Hanged Man (Water), Judgment (Fire). (There are only three element cards among the majors, corresponding to the three Mother Letters: Aleph, Mem, Shin).