futility reversed

[jenessa]

For me the concept of futility suggests, that there is nothing we can do that could possibly make a difference to the unhappy circumstances we find ourselves in. & As such 7 Swords (?) can appear WHEN: your blind to your own limitations & need to swallow your pride and admit defeat, AS to continue would be a futile exercise & otherwise a wasted effort.

However, the reversal for this totally escapes me. I don't see this card as having an opposite/positive meaning. ++ Given that this concept seems to be so final, i find this difficult to think of in terms of something which is being delayed or in its early stages. So how would one go about reading this in the reversed position. Any Ideas?? I'm at a total loss!!

& To be perfectly honest .. i assigned this concept to 8 Swords reversed, because i could rationalize "futility" being the reversal of bondage/8 swords upright to some extent .. re: being "blind to ones limitations", etc.
However, as i'm in the process of refining my notes & otherwise trying to get on the same page as everyone else, i'd appreciate any assistance you can provide.

I also don't get the reversal for "bondage"/8 Swords .. which was why i tryed to kill 2 birds with one stone & otherwise took a bit of literary license where these 2 cards where concerned.

 

[Thirteen]

For me the concept of futility suggests, that there is nothing we can do that could possibly make a difference to the unhappy circumstances we find ourselves in. & As such 7 Swords (?) can appear WHEN: your blind to your own limitations & need to swallow your pride and admit defeat, AS to continue would be a futile exercise & otherwise a wasted effort.

7/Swords? I don't get that at all from 7/Swords. The card, to me, usually means that either someone is going to be dishonest and you have to watch out--or that you can't be as honest as you might like to be. That in this case, you have to sneak around rather than blurt out the truth.

Note that the thief has not taken ALL the swords, just some. So even if you have been robbed, you are not defenseless. The situation may be difficult to fight, with some loss, and it may be impossible to truely succeed, but I don't think it's all the way into "What's the use?" futility.

To me, futility would best be indicated by 5/Swords, which has always come across as the "you can't win!" card. This shows beaten folk walking away from a bully who's got their swords. They've been disarmed. There is no winning. The best that the card can suggest is not to fight and so not risk losing everything.

Which makes it hard to answer your question, especially as reversal don't always indicate an opposite--and therefore positive meaning. They *can* be positive and opposite, but sometimes they indicate a blockage of the card's energy instead. This would mean that the 5/Swords reversed is not a loss, but it isn't a win either. The futility in this case is that the argument (sword fight) drags on with neither side getting anywhere, i.e., that the energy of the card, to have a win/lose outcome, has been blocked.

The meaning, however, remains the same. Futility upright or reversed.

As for 7/Swords, upright, the card seems to indicate (to me) that only cheaters can succeed in the situation--reversed would say to me that cheating is not going to lead to success (again, the energy of the card--cheating = chance for success) is blocked. I would not say that the reversed indicates honesty, however, merely that the thief is going to lose whatever he steals.

That's how I see those cards. I've no idea if that helps you.

 

[euripides]

I can't believe I'm disagreeing with 13 (love your work, by the way...)

I'm pretty sure the Thoth and Thoth based decks aren't read with reversals? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick on this?

I've been reading with the Rohrig which is Thoth based with the same keywords, and recently reordered it to turn the cards right-way-up as I found with its fairly specific takes on many of the cards, reversals were doing my head in. Reversals are heaps easier to read with RWS.

 

[JennyM]

For me the concept of futility suggests, that there is nothing we can do that could possibly make a difference to the unhappy circumstances we find ourselves in. & As such 7 Swords (?) can appear WHEN: your blind to your own limitations & need to swallow your pride and admit defeat, AS to continue would be a futile exercise & otherwise a wasted effort.

What deck are you using? That doesn't sound anything like the 7 of Swords on the RWS.

 

[Sophie]

Yes, Thirteen - I believe Jenessa was referring to the 7 of Swords either in the Thoth or a Thoth-inspired deck, which indeed calls the 7 of Swords Futility.

Jenessa - I love your definition of Futility/7 of Swords.

The Thoth and its family do no use reversals - you read with elemental dignities instead. The meaning is subtly altered depending on the elemental juxtapositions of the cards. A "friendly" juxtaposition (such as air and fire, for example), make the cards less negative - even negative cards become only temporarily annoying! - while a unfriendly juxtaposition (such as air and earth), would emphasise the negative quality of the card, including in "positive" cards.

 

[euripides]

"friendly" juxtaposition (such as air and fire, for example), make the cards less negative - even negative cards become only temporarily annoying! - while a unfriendly juxtaposition (such as air and earth), would emphasise the negative quality of the card, including in "positive" cards.

Now how come I 'got' that in just one sentence when I've read PAGES on elemental dignities and still found it mindboggling? Thank you so much!

 

[Thirteen]

Ah! Crowley....That changes everything!

Yes, Thirteen - I believe Jenessa was referring to the 7 of Swords either in the Thoth or a Thoth-inspired deck, which indeed calls the 7 of Swords Futility.

Ah! Okay, granted then. I wondered why there was such confusion--Thoth has some very distinctive differences (Lust instead of strength, for example), and, in some ways, it's own intricate vocabulary of meaning. It helps enormously to know we're discussing Crowley instead of Waite.

I do believe that what's been said about reversals and Thoth is correct however. Crowley, as I recall, wanted the deck to be made in such a way as to discourage reversals. I could be wrong on that, but I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

 

[jenessa]

Yet again .. thanx to everyone .. your feedback is truly invaluable @ this stage of my tarot studies. Also just so you all know, i use both rws & thoth. However, what i'm trying to do is incorporate these teachings into one system. (<< Leastways, i'm attempting to do this ... insofar as this is possible .. or rather should i say, i'm trying to incorporate what has value & otherwise the many similarities, albeit the occasional distinction). So this may be a lil confusing, given that i'm looking to "develop a system" i feel comfortable working with, and as such have been refining and in some instances re-ordering my system of meanings towards that end.

Also for your info. & as regards the system i'm developing, i always read with ED's .. or in otherwords, i always consider juxtaposition whenever i'm doing a reading. AND i also ALWAYS read with reversals. So as far as the system i'm developing, this may be a bit of a unique way to read meaning into the cards. Tho i can't believe others haven't thot to combine .. and otherwise attempted to incorporate the various tarot teachings into one coherent system. It's not that much of a stretch, when one stops to consider that the method of reading ED's is primarily intended to enhance or diminish the cards meaning. So altho as 13 has pt.'d-out, Crowley apparently wanted to discourage reading with reversals, i've never really understood why anyone would "stop reading with them"/(reversals), given that its "not necessary to dispense with this approach".

Further to which & in keeping with the combined approach i use, this ties-in with something Helvetica posted re: how a "negative card" can be read as being "less negative" in instances of a friendly* juxtaposition. << & many thanks for this insight, because altho i read this way, as i haven't been reading with this combined approach for all that long, i've never seen this in the cards .. or otherwise dealt with this within the context of a spread. In fact, this was the one bug i was trying to work-out re: using both reversals & ED"S. >> & By this i mean, that when thinking in terms of a card that IF upright was positive, but when reversed took on the negative aspect of the card, i'd been hung-up as to whether a "friendly" juxtaposition would essentially "enhance" its negative qualities. But now i see how this can be read so as to negate & otherwise "lessen" the cards "negative" qualities. So this was a real AHA moment for me, because i'd never thot in these terms before.

(Now i didn't mean to get off topic, but i wanted to take a moment to thank Helvetica for her feedback, given that i found it "useful". Not to mention, that i thot i'd better explain a bit about where i was coming from so as to attempt to avoid any future confusion). (Further to which & when i get time i'll have to start a new thread & otherwise attempt to explain how i think both reversals & ED's can be used re: the art of interpretation).

Anywho, alot of what i've penned in the preceeding does tie-in with my original post, given that i was having real difficulty trying to understand how futility would be "interpreted" as a reversal. << So many thanx 13 for explaining & otherwise providing me with examples of how this could be done. These examples/your insight re: 5 Swords & 7 Swords was actually very helpful!!

Further to which, altho i'd noted that 7 Swords in thoth represented "futility", i wasn't comfortable with this assignment, hence my inquiry, not to mention my taking literary license & attributing this to 8 Swords (r). << & Yes Helvetica you seemed to understand my take re: this card meaning, tho i'm not sure where i got this. As i say, i'm been studying & researching tarot for close to 4 years, and i keep adding to and refining my system along the way .. not to mention, that i've been known to put my own spin on things at times.

However, i like the concept of stealth & see it as a "good fit" for 7 Swords. << So i'm beginning to get on the same page for the most part when it comes to assigning the card meanings. Tho i will undoubtedly have a few "quirks" of my own. But then again, as nothing is carved in stone .. not to mention that i'm @ a point where alot of what i'm doing is a matter of trial & error, i'm in the process of discovering what works & what doesn't. So many/many thanks everyone!!