Huck
Following was distributed by autorbis (http://autorbis.net) at TarotL and LTarot:
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Recently Michael Hurst's interpretation of "the Riddle of Tarot" raised the interest in the numberology of Tarot, a topic, which we at Trionfi.com haven't focussed till now or only in small provisional articles:
http://geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/Riddle.html
http://trionfi.com/0/g/
http://trionfi.com/0/g/61
Andrea Vitali has some publications at trionfi.com about iconographical questions of some cards, see:
http://trionfi.com/0/i/v/
These articles should be seen in some context to a publication of Andrea Vitali in 1987 as participation of Andrea Vitali as author and chief editor together with G. Berti: "Tarocchi: Arte e Magia." Part of the article of Andrea is a list with appearances of "numerologies". Andrea's list is quite different to that, what was given by Stuart Kaplan's Encyclopedia II,chapter IX, p. 182 ff., which means, that Andrea's list enlarges knowledge about Tarot numerology. It seems, that Andrea's list stayed a little hidden, cause Internet discussion mostly used Kaplan't listings.
In Andrea's recent publication, see short note:
http://trionfi.com/0/n/
the numerological question again is a topic.
####### (following text is copied from another mail at LTarot)
Andrea participated as author and major editor (?) together with G.Berti in 1987 in an anthology of various authors Tarocchi - Ate e Magia. Andrea's personal article ended with a great list, at which he presents 12 different numerologies, which - as far I know it - , are not totally identical to that, what was presented by Stuart Kaplan 1986 in Tarot Encyclopedia II.
The 12 documents are:
Anonnimo: Sermones de Ludo - Kaplan knows it
P. Aretino: Pasquinata 1521 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Troila Pomeran 1534 - Kaplan knows it
Anonimo: Motti ca. 1525-1540 - Kaplan knows it NOT
P. Aretino: Le carte parlanti 1543 - Kaplan knows it NOT
T. Folengo: Chaos del Triperuno - 1546 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Paolo Giovio: Gioci di Tarocchi 1550 - Kaplan knows it NOT
F.A. Lollio: Invettiva - 1550 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Anonimo: Trionphi de Tarocchi ca. 1530-1560 - Kaplan knows it NOT
F. Piscina: Discorsi - 1565 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Anonimo: Discorso ... 16th cent. - Kaplan knows it NOT
T. Garzoni: Piazza universale .. 1585 - Kaplan knows it
Andrea in his list does not use sources, which Kaplan presents:
Metropol. Museum etc - deck fragments
Rosenwald Sheet
Classical Rouen Tarot
G. Bertoni ca. 1550
Catelin Geofroy 1557
G. Susio 1570
---- that's all from 16th century and of interest might be also:
Minchiate
Tarocco Siciliano.
I would imagine that Andrea knew Kaplan's work, and his selection scheme is just a little different. Perhaps Andrea's list should be regarded as a reply to Kaplan, which points to the fact, that there are some more numerological rows in existence.
Tarot internet debate started about 1996 ... as far I observed it, the list of Andrea was not known and it didn't became known in the discussions of insiders (although single entries appeared, as I remember), but I guess the different sources (Kaplan + Andrea and possibly things, which were noted by Dummett) were not united systematically and they were not made "easily accessible".
So a first step towards the numerolgical question would be to generate a "general knowledge" about this - with easy access via internet. Then everybody of the few people, which like to debate about it, could know, what he's talking about.
Andrea in his new book (2005, il Tarocchino di Bologna) ) offers a next resource ... the books consists of three parts:
Part one is written about the historical aspects of the Tarocchi Bolognese (from Andrea).
Part two is written by Terry Zanetti with a historical divination approach.
Part 3 contains with the title "Testi" 9 collected texts of historical value (often poems), which (as far I understood it), at least partly touch the numerological question.
In the current question the 3rd part is of great interest, as you surely realized. The text are presented just as texts - there is no commentary to it, nor a datation. They are refered to in part I ... the text of part I is Italian, analysing which part of the text to which Testi belongs creates some difficulties to me ... as "precise" Italian is difficult to me, too ... I'm not the ideal reporter about it. So in the moment I just report, "there is something, which touches the question".
"De Ludis Nostris Temporis", a short poem of Andrea Alciati - which recently was presented by Ross at TarotL with some discussion around it - is part of the series of the Testi, btw.
###############################################
Recently Michael Hurst's interpretation of "the Riddle of Tarot" raised the interest in the numberology of Tarot, a topic, which we at Trionfi.com haven't focussed till now or only in small provisional articles:
http://geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/Riddle.html
http://trionfi.com/0/g/
http://trionfi.com/0/g/61
Andrea Vitali has some publications at trionfi.com about iconographical questions of some cards, see:
http://trionfi.com/0/i/v/
These articles should be seen in some context to a publication of Andrea Vitali in 1987 as participation of Andrea Vitali as author and chief editor together with G. Berti: "Tarocchi: Arte e Magia." Part of the article of Andrea is a list with appearances of "numerologies". Andrea's list is quite different to that, what was given by Stuart Kaplan's Encyclopedia II,chapter IX, p. 182 ff., which means, that Andrea's list enlarges knowledge about Tarot numerology. It seems, that Andrea's list stayed a little hidden, cause Internet discussion mostly used Kaplan't listings.
In Andrea's recent publication, see short note:
http://trionfi.com/0/n/
the numerological question again is a topic.
####### (following text is copied from another mail at LTarot)
Andrea participated as author and major editor (?) together with G.Berti in 1987 in an anthology of various authors Tarocchi - Ate e Magia. Andrea's personal article ended with a great list, at which he presents 12 different numerologies, which - as far I know it - , are not totally identical to that, what was presented by Stuart Kaplan 1986 in Tarot Encyclopedia II.
The 12 documents are:
Anonnimo: Sermones de Ludo - Kaplan knows it
P. Aretino: Pasquinata 1521 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Troila Pomeran 1534 - Kaplan knows it
Anonimo: Motti ca. 1525-1540 - Kaplan knows it NOT
P. Aretino: Le carte parlanti 1543 - Kaplan knows it NOT
T. Folengo: Chaos del Triperuno - 1546 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Paolo Giovio: Gioci di Tarocchi 1550 - Kaplan knows it NOT
F.A. Lollio: Invettiva - 1550 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Anonimo: Trionphi de Tarocchi ca. 1530-1560 - Kaplan knows it NOT
F. Piscina: Discorsi - 1565 - Kaplan knows it NOT
Anonimo: Discorso ... 16th cent. - Kaplan knows it NOT
T. Garzoni: Piazza universale .. 1585 - Kaplan knows it
Andrea in his list does not use sources, which Kaplan presents:
Metropol. Museum etc - deck fragments
Rosenwald Sheet
Classical Rouen Tarot
G. Bertoni ca. 1550
Catelin Geofroy 1557
G. Susio 1570
---- that's all from 16th century and of interest might be also:
Minchiate
Tarocco Siciliano.
I would imagine that Andrea knew Kaplan's work, and his selection scheme is just a little different. Perhaps Andrea's list should be regarded as a reply to Kaplan, which points to the fact, that there are some more numerological rows in existence.
Tarot internet debate started about 1996 ... as far I observed it, the list of Andrea was not known and it didn't became known in the discussions of insiders (although single entries appeared, as I remember), but I guess the different sources (Kaplan + Andrea and possibly things, which were noted by Dummett) were not united systematically and they were not made "easily accessible".
So a first step towards the numerolgical question would be to generate a "general knowledge" about this - with easy access via internet. Then everybody of the few people, which like to debate about it, could know, what he's talking about.
Andrea in his new book (2005, il Tarocchino di Bologna) ) offers a next resource ... the books consists of three parts:
Part one is written about the historical aspects of the Tarocchi Bolognese (from Andrea).
Part two is written by Terry Zanetti with a historical divination approach.
Part 3 contains with the title "Testi" 9 collected texts of historical value (often poems), which (as far I understood it), at least partly touch the numerological question.
In the current question the 3rd part is of great interest, as you surely realized. The text are presented just as texts - there is no commentary to it, nor a datation. They are refered to in part I ... the text of part I is Italian, analysing which part of the text to which Testi belongs creates some difficulties to me ... as "precise" Italian is difficult to me, too ... I'm not the ideal reporter about it. So in the moment I just report, "there is something, which touches the question".
"De Ludis Nostris Temporis", a short poem of Andrea Alciati - which recently was presented by Ross at TarotL with some discussion around it - is part of the series of the Testi, btw.
