Pageant moms as negative Empress

[Trogon]

Okay, I'm studying The Empress (primarily the RWS but also the Thoth and Rohrig at the same time - yeah, I'm weird and mixing the "systems" a bit).

As I was contemplating the reversed aspects of the Empress, I got to wondering about these "pageant moms" and similar aspects of, what I feel could be, in many cases, going waaaaaay beyond what is reasonable. For the most part I have been able to avoid watching the "reality" t.v. shows portraying these child beauty pageants and the mothers and their children who are involved in them. But with some of these mothers who are involving their children in these pageants, it seems they are (at best) trying to live vicariously through their child ... trying to live out some fantasy of their own. In some cases these efforts have resulted in some very questionable actions by the mothers, occasionally verging on abuse.

Now, when I think of an abusive mother, I do think of The Empress reversed. But what about the mother who is pushing their child to take part in some activity so they (the parent) can experience their own fantasy? Living, as I had said, vicariously through their child. Would this be, in it's milder form (the living vicariously) simply a negative aspect of The Empress? Or would you feel that this using of your child to live out your own desires actually crosses into The Empress-reversed realm?

I would think that, in those cases where it becomes abusive, it goes right straight to the reversed side of The Empress. But that is me and from everything I've read, there is little good that comes from forcing a toddler into a slinky, low-cut dress, high heels and a ton of makeup.

I can see the same sort of thing with a father who forces a child to play Pop Warner football because he wants to relive his own childhood. Never mind what the child wants, he must play football! (Of course ... these would be aspects of The Emperor I guess.)

Is the other cards you might expect to see in such a situation instead of The Empress or The Emperor?

 

[Zephyros]

I don't use reversals but I like your interpretation. The Empress reversed of ill-dignified could mean a woman that is too strong, perhaps bitchy, perhaps, yes, emphasizing womanly aspects where they don't belong, like in a child. When I first began studying Tarot, I found it useful to assign people or situations to different cards in order to make the, "speak" better to me. Nice idea you had!

By the way, I've watched some of those pageant reality shows, and they're downright scary. I saw one mother who used botox on her five year old daughter's face, because of the "wrinkles." The child was so warped already that she actually asked for it

 

[caridwen]

There is a very good film that partly explores the theme of pageants called Little Miss Sunshine:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449059/

A family drives their daughter across the States so she can take part in a Little Miss Sunshine Pageant and it really is frightening. There is a brilliant part in the film where the girl's father is unsure how he should feel about these children who are wearing fake tan and eyelashes and parading around in tiny skirts.

There's even a man in the audience who doesn't have a child in the Pagent but goes to them anyway. It's all a bit seedy and sick. I think these things should be banned to tell you the truth.

I definitely agree that the negative Empress is a controlling, demeaning mother figure. The mother who fed her son until he weighed a tonne and couldn't move from his bed in order to feed the void after her first child died. The incestuous mother from Psycho and yes the mother who dresses her toddler like a tiny porn star to win tin trophies in order to feed her own ego. The mother who infantalises her children so they suffer from panic attacks when asked to make a decision as adults or the mother who has no boundaries who raises a brood of feral thugs.

There are plently of messed up people who unfortunately have children who become messed up adults.

 

[PAMUYA]

Yes, I agree, I have seen this come up as "soccer, band, gymnastic, dance" mom's too. The other card that comes up would be the Queen of Pentacles Reversed, same as the Empress reversed, doing for their own ego.

 

[caridwen]

Yes, I agree, I have seen this come up as "soccer, band, gymnastic, dance" mom's too. The other card that comes up would be the Queen of Pentacles Reversed, same as the Empress reversed, doing for their own ego.

This is one of my pet hates - Queen of Pentacles as a substitute for the Empress. I don't see the relation.

 

[PAMUYA]

This is one of my pet hates - Queen of Pentacles as a substitute for the Empress. I don't see the relation.

In this instance it has for me, Queen of Pentacles is the Queen of materalism and ego when gone too far, that is what pageant moms are, their interests out weights their childrens.

 

[caridwen]

In this instance it has for me, Queen of Pentacles is the Queen of materalism and ego when gone too far, that is what pageant moms are, their interests out weights their childrens.

Got you and I agree

 

[Trogon]

I don't use reversals but I like your interpretation. The Empress reversed of ill-dignified could mean a woman that is too strong, perhaps bitchy, perhaps, yes, emphasizing womanly aspects where they don't belong, like in a child. When I first began studying Tarot, I found it useful to assign people or situations to different cards in order to make the, "speak" better to me. Nice idea you had!

By the way, I've watched some of those pageant reality shows, and they're downright scary. I saw one mother who used botox on her five year old daughter's face, because of the "wrinkles." The child was so warped already that she actually asked for it

Yes, that is one of the things I do when I'm studying too, I look at the card, think over the meanings and how they can apply to real people and real situations. And as for those child pageant shows ... just watching the adverts for them is scary enough.

There is a very good film that partly explores the theme of pageants called Little Miss Sunshine:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449059/

A family drives their daughter across the States so she can take part in a Little Miss Sunshine Pageant and it really is frightening. There is a brilliant part in the film where the girl's father is unsure how he should feel about these children who are wearing fake tan and eyelashes and parading around in tiny skirts.

There's even a man in the audience who doesn't have a child in the Pagent but goes to them anyway. It's all a bit seedy and sick. I think these things should be banned to tell you the truth.

I definitely agree that the negative Empress is a controlling, demeaning mother figure. The mother who fed her son until he weighed a tonne and couldn't move from his bed in order to feed the void after her first child died. The incestuous mother from Psycho and yes the mother who dresses her toddler like a tiny porn star to win tin trophies in order to feed her own ego. The mother who infantalises her children so they suffer from panic attacks when asked to make a decision as adults or the mother who has no boundaries who raises a brood of feral thugs.

I never did see this film, though I do remember seeing the trailer for it. It had sounded pretty funny ... in a scary kind of way. The weird guy who goes to watch the pageants is probably not that uncommon. That's another aspect of these things that scares me ... the chomos they must attract.

There are plently of messed up people who unfortunately have children who become messed up adults.

Working in law enforcement, I have to say I have seen my fair share of these too. There are times when I doubt the wisdom of ... well, I am about to say something which will be extremely unpopular, so I think I'll just keep my mouth shut on that.

Yes, I agree, I have seen this come up as "soccer, band, gymnastic, dance" mom's too. The other card that comes up would be the Queen of Pentacles Reversed, same as the Empress reversed, doing for their own ego.

Yes, I can definitely see the Q of Pents-rx as being similar in many respects to The Empress-rx. Though ... wouldn't all of the Queens have some aspects of The Empress inherent in them? Rather, I guess it would be more correct to say that aspects of The Empress can be a part of all the Queens. The Empress is kind of The Woman, and each Queen can represent specific aspects of that, yes?

Anyway, thank you all very much for your replies. These kinds of discussions are what help me to kind of solidify the real-world aspects of the cards in my mind.

 

[caridwen]

Yes, that is one of the things I do when I'm studying too, I look at the card, think over the meanings and how they can apply to real people and real situations. And as for those child pageant shows ... just watching the adverts for them is scary enough.
I never did see this film, though I do remember seeing the trailer for it. It had sounded pretty funny ... in a scary kind of way. The weird guy who goes to watch the pageants is probably not that uncommon. That's another aspect of these things that scares me ... the chomos they must attract.
Working in law enforcement, I have to say I have seen my fair share of these too. There are times when I doubt the wisdom of ... well, I am about to say something which will be extremely unpopular, so I think I'll just keep my mouth shut on that.
Yes, I can definitely see the Q of Pents-rx as being similar in many respects to The Empress-rx. Though ... wouldn't all of the Queens have some aspects of The Empress inherent in them? Rather, I guess it would be more correct to say that aspects of The Empress can be a part of all the Queens. The Empress is kind of The Woman, and each Queen can represent specific aspects of that, yes?

Anyway, thank you all very much for your replies. These kinds of discussions are what help me to kind of solidify the real-world aspects of the cards in my mind.

Thanks for your feedback Trogon and I would be interested in any other thoughts you have on the Empress during your studies

 

[triple_entendre]

In this situation: reversed six of cups.

It might be crossed by The Chariot, which I think can either be male or female, signifies struggles, and sometimes is given a correspondent to the star sign Cancer: family and home.

The Tower symbolizes pride and ambition, reversed 7 of cups would symbolize unfulfilled dreams and unrealistic expectations, reversed 3 of pentacles an austere apprenticeship.