Warsaw Cards

[Huck]

Christie's auction house card
Visconti/Sforza Queen of Coins
The auction house Christie in Paris offered for 17th March 2005 a single Tarot card without informations to its origin, generally dating it to 15th century (168 x 83 mm). The estimated selling price was said to be 25,000 to 35,000 Euros.
Later addition: We've heard, that the price ended with 280.000 Euro (?).


Identification by trionfi.com

It's rather obvious by iconographical comparition and by the size of the cards, that this card belongs to the Warsaw cards (Kaplan, Encyclopedia of Tarot I, p. 108/109). Michael Dummett gives as the size of these cards (169 x 83) with a minimal difference to the Christie card.

(autorbis).

see card at:
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/christie/

Ross Caldwell in the Cristina Fiorini thread gave the opinion (of Depaulis), that the single Ferrarese card ...

more details to this Depaulis statement
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/ferrasingle/

... belongs to the Warsaw cards.

Generally in matters of the Warsaw cards perhaps one should ask the "stupid question" for the provenance of these cards.

How did they come just to Warsaw?

In this context it's PERHAPS interesting to know, that a Sforza-princess (Bona of Sforza) married to Polonia and became there Queen of Polonia. This happened rather late - in the year 1518.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_Sforza

... and if we think this stupid question to its end, we have a rather big (?) behind the dating of the single Ferrarese card for ca. 1455.

In this context we may also think of these two Sforza cards in Hannover, Germany, Kestner Museum.

Kaplan I, p. 108

There is the same stupid question ... how do these cards come just to Germany?
Now is this style of the cards a little different of the other Tarocchi cards, even me can see this, so I think other can see this also. Naturally it's better in colours and higher resolution, which I don't have at hand.

I could imagine, that these is the refined late 15th century Sforza-style from Birago or Ambrogio de Predis - pictures of them you find by the image-search-function of google.

Birago worked for Bona of Savoyen, mother of Bianca Maria Sforza ... in the early 90's of 15th century, short before Bianca Maria went off to marry Emperor Maximilian.

Ambrogio de Predis accompanied Bianca Maria on her journey to Innsbruck 1493/94 to her final wedding. At the wedding evening .. before the night ... the bride showed the cards to her new husband. They did lead an engaged exchange about them.

Well, having no further information .... what shall one say. It are just stupid questions.

And ... just in the mood to ask VERY STUPID questions ... how came the Charles VI. cards to Paris ? ... and when married the first Italian princess to the French court?

Oh ... that seems rather late ... Katharina de Medici, somehow after 1530 ... but she was really from Florence.

Well, the costumes analysts said ca. 1470. But if these playing card painters prefered to show "old costumes" - just cause of nostalgic Italian feelings?

 

[mjhurst]

Hi, Huck,

"stupid question"

stupid question

stupid question

Well, having no further information .... what shall one say. It are just stupid questions.

And ... just in the mood to ask VERY STUPID questions

You seem to be implying RATHER LOUDLY and repeatedly that someone has called this a stupid question. If someone called it a stupid question, why not name them and quote them?

If they didn't, why are you insinuating that they did? That is, AFAIK, pointlessly insulting to those you are challenging, those who did NOT say that.

Questioning the provenance of ANY of the early Tarot cards is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, given that virtually all of them are dated on chains of circumstantial evidence. That is precisely what people like Fiorini are doing, questioning the origin of the oldest cards and attempting to bring circumstantial evidence to bear on the question, taking a new look from a different perspective.

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Michael,

Hi, Huck,

You seem to be implying RATHER LOUDLY and repeatedly that someone has called this a stupid question. If someone called it a stupid question, why not name them and quote them?

If they didn't, why are you insinuating that they did? That is, AFAIK, pointlessly insulting to those you are challenging, those who did NOT say that.

I can't answer for Huck, but I don't think he's insinuating anything, at least with a specific person in mind, except that *somebody* might think them stupid questions. At least I didn't take it that way, but if so it could have been ME he's thinking about.

Questioning the provenance of ANY of the early Tarot cards is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, given that virtually all of them are dated on chains of circumstantial evidence. That is precisely what people like Fiorini are doing, questioning the origin of the oldest cards and attempting to bring circumstantial evidence to bear on the question, taking a new look from a different perspective.

You're absolutely right. It is especially significant when a *bunch* of older questions get answered suddenly, by different researchers/questioners working independently (as happened in the case with the Florentine provenance question). This shows that the evidence had accumulated to a point where, with enough people looking at it, certain conclusions were inevitable.

Best regards,

Ross

 

[Ross G Caldwell]

Hi Huck,

see card at:
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/christie/

I had forgotten about that one. Yes, it's certainly the same pack. Nice card.

Generally in matters of the Warsaw cards perhaps one should ask the "stupid question" for the provenance of these cards.

How did they come just to Warsaw?

In this context it's PERHAPS interesting to know, that a Sforza-princess (Bona of Sforza) married to Polonia and became there Queen of Polonia. This happened rather late - in the year 1518.

... and if we think this stupid question to its end, we have a rather big (?) behind the dating of the single Ferrarese card for ca. 1455.

There are other reasons to date the cards to that time. Look at other artists at the proposed date (no later than 1450, actually), and if you are intrigued by Ferrara, look there and then.

I could imagine, that these is the refined late 15th century Sforza-style from Birago or Ambrogio de Predis - pictures of them you find by the image-search-function of google.

Birago worked for Bona of Savoyen, mother of Bianca Maria Sforza ... in the early 90's of 15th century, short before Bianca Maria went off to marry Emperor Maximilian.

Ambrogio de Predis accompanied Bianca Maria on her journey to Innsbruck 1493/94 to her final wedding. At the wedding evening .. before the night ... the bride showed the cards to her new husband. They did lead an engaged exchange about them.

If you are talking about the Kestner cards, then I don't know that these cards have been subject to any radical new dating.

And ... just in the mood to ask VERY STUPID questions ... how came the Charles VI. cards to Paris ? ... and when married the first Italian princess to the French court?

Oh ... that seems rather late ... Katharina de Medici, somehow after 1530 ... but she was really from Florence.

Well, the costumes analysts said ca. 1470. But if these playing card painters prefered to show "old costumes" - just cause of nostalgic Italian feelings?

We don't always know how cards get places. Sometimes they migrate with families, sometimes they are bought or exchanged as precious art, sometimes they find their way by unknown means, accidentally or otherwise. In cases where the trail goes cold, you can research the question more deeply, or you can speculate with the information available. It's not always a good idea to assume a family connection, even if one *can* be made, given that there was a Visconti and Sforza descendant in every royal house of Europe.

The early dating of the cards isn't aimed at demolishing the 5x14, or any other theory. It's arrived at by methodology, not necessarily perfect, but never arbitrary. Finding a Sforza relative in a European capital in the 16th century, is arbitrary (i.e. unsound) methodology.

The earliest thing known about the Charles VI cards is that Roger de Gaignières owned them since at least 1698, and according to an expert on him that I consulted years ago, he did most of his collecting in eastern France (specifically, I believe, Lorraine - but I can't find her correspondence right now - don't quote me on it). But it is very unlikely that he found them in Paris.

Ross

 

[Huck]

Dating Warsaw-cards

Hi Huck,
There are other reasons to date the cards to that time. Look at other artists at the proposed date (no later than 1450, actually), and if you are intrigued by Ferrara, look there and then.

"Old design" is not totally reliable. We play with Kings, Queen and Knaves and live in democracy. Sagramoro and Gherardo da Vicenza were old men and likely "old fashioned" painters. And perhaps there was from begin a "nostalgic" interpretation of the theme "playing cards".

If you are talking about the Kestner cards, then I don't know that these cards have been subject to any radical new dating.

The "dating" alone is not interesting, it's more interesting to find the real "context", commissioner, painter and the relevant opportunity. Between the Kestner Museum cards and the story of Bianca Maria's journey to the north a context is possible.

We don't always know how cards get places. Sometimes they migrate with families, sometimes they are bought or exchanged as precious art, sometimes they find their way by unknown means, accidentally or otherwise. In cases where the trail goes cold, you can research the question more deeply, or you can speculate with the information available. It's not always a good idea to assume a family connection, even if one *can* be made, given that there was a Visconti and Sforza descendant in every royal house of Europe.

The early dating of the cards isn't aimed at demolishing the 5x14, or any other theory. It's arrived at by methodology, not necessarily perfect, but never arbitrary. Finding a Sforza relative in a European capital in the 16th century, is arbitrary (i.e. unsound) methodology.

The aim is the "really context", the methode can be judged, when something wents wrong.
There is the methode of paper analysis for "good dating". Was it done or is it known, that it was done - beside for the Goldschmidt cards, also the Stuttgarter Hofjagdspiel - in one of the mentioned cases? Would this be a trustworthy methode or has it found critique?

The earliest thing known about the Charles VI cards is that Roger de Gaignières owned them since at least 1698, and according to an expert on him that I consulted years ago, he did most of his collecting in eastern France (specifically, I believe, Lorraine - but I can't find her correspondence right now - don't quote me on it). But it is very unlikely that he found them in Paris.

Ross

Well, what we really should have is a collection similar to our collection to our Trionfi notes, in which each "dating" is critically researched, by which methodes it was given. A place, where all this argumentation here and there to each deck is recorded - with the arguments, which did lead to a decision.