Predictive vs lessons

[danieljuk]

you made me think about this youareafool I don't like to use it for testing the tarot, that seems more like a party game to me. I think what I mean is that if I do predictions, I can't make guarantees! I worry about people living their lives by predictions and I love it when things come true reading for the future! But the lessons part of it, I can be more sure of.

 

[Grizabella]

I predict all the time and have feedback that's very good that I've predicted correctly a large percentage of the time. I just use Tarot for the old-fashioned purpose----telling fortunes. It works for me and I'm pretty good at it, so since it ain't broke, I'm not gonna fix it.

ETA:

If you use the cards for advice, you do predict the future. You're saying "if you do this, then this will be the result" and everything but the present is either past or future, so you DO predict but just don't think that's what you're doing.

 

[SunChariot]

I really like that tarot can be different things to different people.

Personally, I don't feel comfortable predicting things such as what a future lover may look like, or that someone will be getting a raise. My comfort zone is more in relaying the positive lesson of the cards and the warnings they indicate.

Do you feel comfortable (and honestly believe?) if you choose to give detailed predictions? How do you follow up? I'm really interested, but hoping it doesn't start a sh*tstorm debate lol

I'm pretty much with you on this. I don't think predictive readers and anywhere near as useful as readings to teach us life lessons, and help us feel better about what it going on in our lives.

I would actually say for me that predictive readings are only useful for the life lessons they can teach us.

Those predictive readings are always the most requested ones. It seems to be a misconceotion about Tarot that that is what Tarot is for. Most people (non-readers of course) do not even think it can do anything else.

They do not seem not as usefu at that as they do not predict THE future, just where you are heading atm Which can change easily enough. At the very least when someone requests a predictive reading I tell them first that the cards will not predict THE one and only future that will happen no matter what, just where they are heading now at this precise moment in time. Things can change and the actual future may play our differently if anything at all changed from now till then....I give them the whole speech first.

Other times I try to suggest an alternate question. Eg if someone wants to know if they will get a raise next month at work, then I tell them that the point of Tarot is to help you create your best life, it;s a creative tool not a predictive one.

I then suggest, for example, what if instead of asking if you will get that raise, if we ask what you can do right now to increase your chances of getting one. What steps you can take not that will lead you to get a raise in the next month.

Then you can DO those things and draw it to you. Most times, when I do that the light goes off and people agree seem to see the logic of it. Why worry about what will happen when you can instead work to encourage what you want to happen and the cards can tell you how. All you have to do then is to follow the steps they give.

Babs

 

[delinfrey]

I do give predictive readings, but there are some which I stray from. The absolute favourite is "will we stay together?". Sorry to say, but if someone with a shitty relationship comes for a reading and is hoping for an easy yes or no - either way it can go totally wrong. You say that "yes you will stay together" - they lose an urge to work on it. You say "you will break up" and they get a stimuli to work on it to prove your silly bottom wrong etc...

So I prefer to use a combination of the two. I do predict, but I always explain it is not "predetermined" what will happen, but this is the most probable outcome if X,Y and Z are done/remain the same or whatnot.

This brings to mind a very difficult reading I recently had. There was a woman who had been through several readers and I was then referred to her; she has been wanting to get a baby for some time now and she is also using medical help (which is also quite costly, and not only monetarily). So the main question was: will I get pregnant.

I instantly felt it would be wrong to "predict" stuff like that, as I never give medical advice (to be clear, I had no idea of her situation, question or the in vitro stuff beforehand). Then all her stories were laid on me and I felt quite uncomfortable.

So I suggested we take it month by month and I read her main influences in each month, and when it would be best for her to give it a try.

What the reading in the end came to be is that most of her stress and troubles comes from her own head and thinking, and she will do better if she just lets go. Prediction-wise, best time would be January - so we will see.

But that was a total consultation-prediction symbiosis and worked out really well in the end, so I guess that is the style I prefer when doing predictive readings.

 

[Padma]

Shade has a lot of good points.

Yes! Totally ditto that - great reply, Shade!

I prefer predicting to advice-giving. My feelings are that tarot is not nearly as "serious" as someone who is more qualified to give advice, like a counselor or psychologist.

Yes - agree - I also like to go a shade lighter...and predictive, too. I am no trained psychologist, and I don't want to mess with people's minds.

If you use the cards for advice, you do predict the future. You're saying "if you do this, then this will be the result" and everything but the present is either past or future, so you DO predict but just don't think that's what you're doing.

Sometimes, Griz, you hit the nail so hard right on the head! You took my breath away. Great comment! so true!

So I prefer to use a combination of the two. I do predict, but I always explain it is not "predetermined" what will happen, but this is the most probable outcome if X,Y and Z are done/remain the same or whatnot.

This is exactly my style. This is how I read, too.

Fool, of course everyone has their own way to read. But I really think that all the styles work, to a degree. Tarot cards are just tools used to access the information; so the reading style matters less in the end, imo. What is important is the information you are able to "see" and the value it has to the client. No one way is better than any other way.(imo). And I think everyone here has given you some really valid points of view...

 

[youareafool]

you made me think about this youareafool I don't like to use it for testing the tarot, that seems more like a party game to me. I think what I mean is that if I do predictions, I can't make guarantees! I worry about people living their lives by predictions and I love it when things come true reading for the future! But the lessons part of it, I can be more sure of.

I understand. But do you feel comfortable predicting that the sitter's future lover would have dark hair and be tall? I consider all the cards simply motifs and metaphors, so finding actual detail like that is beyond me. But I'm very interested to see how much the placebo affect comes into play. Are they more likely to look for that type of person and find them, thus confirming? Or would they pass up on really good match bc the sitter is looking for that specific quality?

I predict all the time and have feedback that's very good that I've predicted correctly a large percentage of the time. I just use Tarot for the old-fashioned purpose----telling fortunes. It works for me and I'm pretty good at it, so since it ain't broke, I'm not gonna fix it.

ETA:

If you use the cards for advice, you do predict the future. You're saying "if you do this, then this will be the result" and everything but the present is either past or future, so you DO predict but just don't think that's what you're doing.

I think there is a big difference in giving advice. As opposed to detailed premonitions, I feel like the motifs and metaphors presented by the cards provide the sitter with lessons that are universal to any sitter and any situation. This is the main reason tarot is still relevant so very long after it was created. As opposed to predicting the future, I personally feel like tarot gives advice in the present moment in whatever way the sitter needs, like a structured Rorschach (inkblot) test. With me as a guide, we see what we need to see in the cards to help the sitter ask the right questions to find peace. I can say "if you jump in the water you will get wet". , but it's also a (generally) universal truth. a truth so simple could speak completely differently to one sitter who is extremely overheated and another who is shivering cold already. I never made a leap saying that "this is what is going to happen" or "you must do this or that". I simply show them the meaning of the card, teach them the lesson, and let THEM apply it to their life. They make the connections. They are the root of their "Aha!" moment, not my tarot. I may be going way too deep with this, and if so, thanks for still reading at this point.

Back to my original question, if you do use the tarot in a predictive manner, how do you feel that prediction works? I will not reply trying to argue my thoughts. I posted them above and I am truly interested in how other people see and use tarot. I am open to the IDEA of prediction, but I'm hoping someone's explanation can bridge the gap for me =)

Fool, of course everyone has their own way to read. But I really think that all the styles work, to a degree. Tarot cards are just tools used to access the information; so the reading style matters less in the end, imo. What is important is the information you are able to "see" and the value it has to the client. No one way is better than any other way.(imo). And I think everyone here has given you some really valid points of view...

I hope I didn't make it seem like I don't believe other viewpoints of tarot wouldn't work! I celebrate the diversity of the tarot community. I believe tarot is what you make of it, however you choose to do so. Just like a flow art. You make a really good point about the value being what I can "see". All of these replies have been great =) If I ask questions, it's because I'm trying to explore the area and hear the different methods and explanations that have worked for others.

Thank you guys for taking me seriously... I really haven't had anyone to talk to about tarot before, so all these thoughts and questions have been building up for a long time. I appreciate your patience

 

[Grizabella]

I'll be 70 years old next month. (Shhh!!! Don't tell anyone! ) My life was really a hellish life at times, so I've had experiences a lot of people are spared and I had to think my way out of really traumatic situations. I really think that, considering the life I've lived, I may recognize things in the cards that I'd never have caught if I'd had just a very quiet, peaceful life. I've always just "known" things, too. The combination is, I'm sure, influencing what I see in the cards. I started to learn card reading in 1998, so that's quite a few years of experience with it.

We get the question every so often here at AT-- "How does Tarot work?" and I've never seen anyone, even those who have many more years of experience and study than I do, who has been able to really say how it does work. It just does.

 

[Shade]

I understand. But do you feel comfortable predicting that the sitter's future lover would have dark hair and be tall?

There are some traditions about physical characteristics but not everyone uses them. If I believe in a universe in which I can see that a romantic young man will appear for the client then is that so far off from one in which I can see he's a brunette ;-)

I did a reading for an unromantic, perpetually single coworker and up came the Knight of Cups. I said she would meet a romantic young man who wears his heart on his sleeve. She was hopeful but still a bit dubious (which is a perfectly reasonable state for clients) but she called a clairvoyant for a reading who said "you will meet a young man who wears his heart on his sleeve."

This is not a descriptor used to decribe the tinder-using 20-something's of San Francisco
It's not the sort of person she would typically be interested in.
She's been single for the three years I've known her

I mention these three points to say that this prediction wasn't the "safe bet."

She met a delightful young man. He's an unrepentant romantic. They're going on three months.

Yes, the reading contained advice for her about how to approach the romance and thoughts about her journey in life but the part that stuck was "young man, romantic, heart-on-sleeve."

 

[youareafool]

There are some traditions about physical characteristics but not everyone uses them. If I believe in a universe in which I can see that a romantic young man will appear for the client then is that so far off from one in which I can see he's a brunette ;-)



I did a reading for an unromantic, perpetually single ciworker and up came the Knight of Cups. I said she would meet a romantic young man who wears his heart on his sleeve. She was hopeful but still a bit dubious (which is a perfectly reasonable state for clients) but she called a clairvoyant for a reading who said "you will meet a young man who wears his heart on his sleeve.



This is not a descriptor used to decribe the tinder-using 20-something's of San Francisco

It's not the sort of person she would typically be interested in.

She's been single for the three years I e known her



I mention these three points to say that this prediction wasn't the "safe bet."



She met a delightful young man. He's an unrepentant romantic. They're going on three months.



Yes, the reading contained advice for her about how to approach the romance and thoughts about her journey in life but the part that stuck was "young man, romantic, heart-on-sleeve.

I'm glad you could help guide her to him if it had been my reading I'd have asserted that maybe she needs to open herself up to connecting with a hopeful romantic to balance out her life of hard work. In your opinion, would the client walk away with the same benefit if it was read the two different ways? I know it just comes down to syntax: do I tell her she WILL meet someone, or do I indicate she should ready herself to the possibility of meeting someone? I'm sure you'll say that's a personal choice, I'm just trying to understand when or if to predict instead

There are some traditions about physical characteristics but not everyone uses them. If I believe in a universe in which I can see that a romantic young man will appear for the client then is that so far off from one in which I can see he's a brunette ;-)



I did a reading for an unromantic, perpetually single ciworker and up came the Knight of Cups. I said she would meet a romantic young man who wears his heart on his sleeve. She was hopeful but still a bit dubious (which is a perfectly reasonable state for clients) but she called a clairvoyant for a reading who said "you will meet a young man who wears his heart on his sleeve.



This is not a descriptor used to decribe the tinder-using 20-something's of San Francisco

It's not the sort of person she would typically be interested in.

She's been single for the three years I e known her



I mention these three points to say that this prediction wasn't the "safe bet."



She met a delightful young man. He's an unrepentant romantic. They're going on three months.



Yes, the reading contained advice for her about how to approach the romance and thoughts about her journey in life but the part that stuck was "young man, romantic, heart-on-sleeve.

Thanks shade [emoji120] I see what you mean... And I definitely believe it's possible to predict. I guess my goal with this thread is to find out how other people predict and find a jumping off point that kind of matches where I come from until I make it all my own your replies are very helpful

 

[chaosbloom]

I don't do readings for others because I don't want to take on that kind of responsibility and because I don't think my rhythm would work with others. I tend to mull over spreads for days, looking at individual cards, obsessively doing new spreads on particular cards and so on. I don't think it would be very practical.

To answer the question though, I always value prediction over any sort of lesson. That's the point for me. Tarot can tell me what is likely to happen and what is not as likely to happen. It can tell me about obstacles I'm not aware of. If I need advice, I'll add an Advice position in the spread and I'll take the advice from the source, not the reader. I don't like giving out advice regarding the future so I'm not really hot on taking advice from people who are just as clueless as me in the grand scheme of things.

I guess I don't believe that my goal in life is to become some cheerful little Yoda, learning life lessons and becoming wise. I feel more like driving a boat through dark waters, needing some help with avoiding reefs. As long as I know or suspect where the reef is, I can take care of the sail-around. Including the decision of whether to sail around or test the hull and break into it.

But don't you ever learn anything, someone might ask. Sure, I've learned the best lessons after mistakes. But it's such a personal process that I doubt it can have the same value or impact without a mistake to shake you and without self-inspection so I'm not convinced anyone else is required directly.