PIP Study group -Journal Notes for '4 de Coupes'/4 Cups and '5 de Coupes' /5 Cups

I have been looking at my journal notes for the cards and they are quite sparce. I hadn't looked for a while. I had put some examples of how the cards could work within day-to-day life and was hoping we could either discuss why they did or did not make sense - hopefully add some more.

Here is what I had previously came up with for '4 de Coupes' and '5 de Coupes'. I have linked them together because it helps me to see things as a progression from one thing to another.

Quatre de Coupes -

- emotional security, stability, order and control; steadiness, conformity, feeling settled
- surrounded by family, a time for family celebrations

RX
- the mundane, ‘the blues’, boredom and apathy
- resisting moving forward
- feeling cut off from family and loved ones

Examples:
- not willing to move from the comfort of your realm
- feeling secure in a relationship or marriage
- lack of surprise, and feeling of boredom in a relationship
- feeling trapped by conventional family and children


5 de Coupes

- emotional conflicts and disharmony
- feeling emotionally unstable, loss of balance, a tip over the edge emotionally
- moving away from what feels comfortable, taking an emotional risk

- regret, understanding one’s mistakes on an emotional level

Examples
- lack of connection with lover, family, loved ones or friends
- mid-life crisis
- an affair
- lack of morals
- doing something that might hurt another emotionally
- divorce
- wanting more than your fair share
- lack of acceptance from family or loved ones, feeling ‘pushed out’ emotionally

Would be really interested in discussing these. Of course, they will not be agreed by all. I think I had pretty much just written down what came to mind straight away, as an exercise. These cards feel strange to me because when I see the '2' move to the '3', I feel growth and progression. Because the '4' is already stable, I don't see the move to the '5' as a positive progression - I see it to rock the boat. This is not something I have developed via the Waite cards. It is just down to the fact that it is an odd number, is masculine and can interupt/disturb the '4'. My problem with this is that I see 'Le Pape' as a positive card which contradicts this if I compare major to minor. Still a little shaky on all this numerology stuff so look forward to any help.

LB

On the positive side of the '5', I was just thinking - maybe it could be a deeper spiritual connection within a marriage or relationship or friendship - maybe a renewing of wedding vows, seeking professional guidance for a problem or even the addition of 'something' to spice up the physical side of your love-life. The extra cup could be a helping hand, gifted from Le Pape.

LB

Many have been talking about non-scenic decks and how to find interpretations without the books, so I bumping this thread up in the hope that it might help and also form a new discussion about the pips.

LB

Hi LB, I see for your positive take on the five, you rely on the Pope. Since I don't look to the trumps for pip meanings, I see the positive side of the 5 as providing challenges which lead to the potential for growth.

After all, if we stay in our comfortable 4's forever, we'll never grow or change, and the world will bring change to our door anyway, most likely in a Tower-like experience. So while the 5 experiences may be initially painful or uncomfortable, they shake us out of our 4-ish apathy and set us on the road again.

Here's how I see 4, 5, 6 and 7:

4 -- the juggler is standing there on the stage, holding four clubs. He is completely in control of them but nothing terribly interesting is happening.

5 -- someone throws a fifth club at the juggler. Now he must adapt to the changed circumstances, and quickly, or risk having one or all of the clubs fall to the floor. So he throws one club in the air, catches the club being thrown at him, and begins to juggle.

6 -- another club has been added, and now he is juggling six clubs smoothly. He is into his rhythm and all is right with the world.

7 -- once again, a new club is thrown at the juggler. This is too many clubs to keep juggling in the same pattern, so now he must quickly improvise a completely new pattern of juggling if he wants to keep all the clubs in the air.

I'm not a juggler, so please excuse any juggling inaccuracies!

So as you can see, while it is certainly startling for the juggler at 4 to be thrown a new club at 5 and to have to start juggling, without it nothing interesting or exciting or creative would happen.

So your suggested application for the 5 of Cups, "moving away from what feels comfortable, taking an emotional risk," would be a good example. One might imagine a relationship gone stale, the ending of which provides an opportunity for an exciting new relationship.

-- Lee

Lee

I love what you have written here - in juggling terms. What a great way to help someone understand how these numbers work. And I suppose that the seventh club is not quite such a surprise, the second time around (after the fifth). When I think of the seventh club, I almost see the juggler beckoning someone to chuck it in - like this kind of change is calculated and prepared for. Like there was some kind of budget, drive or plans to move on from the six, and not unexpectedly, like from the four.

I thank you so much for this. Now, if you can juggle 8 to ten ........

There seems to be interest in numerology and pip decks. It is a shame that nobody else has looked in to these threads and have let them pass. It is a good way of learning the tarot for yourself and is very rewarding.

LB

LittleBuddha said:

I almost see the juggler beckoning someone to chuck it in - like this kind of change is calculated and prepared for. Like there was some kind of budget, drive or plans to move on from the six, and not unexpectedly, like from the four.

Click to expand...

This is an interesting thought, something I hadn't considered. I'll be considering this the next time a 7 comes up. This is what is great about this kind of thread, it provides food for thought!

-- Lee

LittleBuddha said:

Quatre de Coupes -

- emotional security, stability, order and control; steadiness, conformity, feeling settled
- surrounded by family, a time for family celebrations

RX
- the mundane, ‘the blues’, boredom and apathy
- resisting moving forward
- feeling cut off from family and loved ones

Examples:
- not willing to move from the comfort of your realm
- feeling secure in a relationship or marriage
- lack of surprise, and feeling of boredom in a relationship
- feeling trapped by conventional family and children
LB

Click to expand...

How did you arrive at emotional stability, order and control . . . surrounded by family . . . " etc. for the 4 of Cups? The meanings you have listed for the reversed is what I use for the upright meaning of that card. It's what I refer to (rightly or not) as the standard meaning of the card.

How do you arrive at other than RWS meanings? Ok. In one book I have, it does refer to 4 as being "stable." Is this a kind of numerological reference and I'd have to know about numerology in order to arrive at something other than what I am accustomed to in determining what a card could mean, if the pips are unillustrated?

I need to know where to begin.

TL2

Maybe to begin, one could put the pips in order from 1 to 10 and see how they relate to one another (okay, the "one" being myself now!)

For example, if I took the five of goblets and compared it to the four, I can very clearly see the disruption of the pattern.

Maybe it is not the card in and of itself that provides insight, but its relation to its neighbors, instead?

KK

I think kilts_knave has a great idea.

For me, reading with the Marseilles meant forming my own way of reading with the deck. I use the suit element, some very basic numerology, plus sometimes linking with the relevant Major and ALOT of intuition and interpretation of the pattern.

A card also has to be looked at in relation to how it looks within the spread. It's meaning as a singular card can change completely when looked at as part of a spread.

Definately looking at pips in relation to the card either side of it when the suit is laid out (as kilts_knave said) will start to speak to you.

I see what Littlebuddha means by his remarks about the 4 of Cups, the card shows the cups in a uniform pattern and the flora is also straight (..."secure, stable, settled..."). Just compare it to the foliage on the 3 and 5 of Cups and you will see what, I think, Littlebuddha means.

Hello to you both.

First of all, I put all RWS ideas out of my head. And kept them there. Infact, when you mentioned them, it took me a second to work out what you meant and recollect that bloke under the tree.

When I think of a four, I think of stability - like the four walls in most rooms, the way in which they protect - like a house. I also think about the security and stabalising force of the Emperor - his rigidity. On an emotional level, we can feel comfortable and secure by our family or in a marriage. The four is passive so it is happy to stay in the confines of these four walls. It is a contented number. But for the shadow side of this number, we get ideas such as monotany, the boredom of being safe and taking no risks, a need to move. And water needs to move and fill vessels wherever it goes, overflowing and running so that it doesn't become stagnant, so this is one of the flaws of the four - it wants to hold on to something that sometimes cannot be contained, when it meets an element like water. Earth would be much happier with the four, I feel.

But when it gets to the 5, there is opportunity; a chance to be creative and reach out and forward.

LB