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Join Date: 27 Sep 2007
Location: Northern Germany
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Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
People say they want "real" breast and not "hollywood" breast
Is that true?
Or is that an intellectual take? Or a minorirty bias?
Or that is a true need, that we publishers forget to aknowledge because we are blinded by the stereotype?
I really want to know.
I believe it is a real need. But of course I can't prove it with any numbers, (just like no one can prove the contrary is true) because how would we know what people would actually buy IF it was available? How do you know that a deck with different sorts of bodies/nudity won't get you MORE buyers than any of the decks we've been discussing here before you make one?

The fact that no publisher is daring enough to try it out actually bothers me most of all. There are a ton of "minority" decks out there, and they are obviously bought by enough people to stay in print. I mean, let's take the Gay Tarot, for example. I know that it's bought by people who aren't gay men (for example by women who are desperate for a deck without comic-style female nudity and with good-looking men!), but I also know that there are gay men with tarot collections who'd never get the Gay Tarot. But all in all, the Gay Tarot buyers can't be a majority of tarot deck buyers. The Decameron can't be a majority deck, either. But it's still published. Okay, maybe there's a secret group of "tarot porn" collectors out there that I don't know about, but somehow I doubt it... Well, you get my point, I guess.

Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
If people liked the Dove commercial because of the message, but the advertisment campaign was a failure (if)... then we have something to think.
It has been said before, but there are many reasons not to buy a product. The advertising might get you curious (and the Dove commercials certainly raised my sympathies for their products immensely!), but when you check out the product in the shop and dislike the smell, or if it's too expensive, or your regular shop doesn't carry it, or if you're allergic to the ingredients, the best advertising won't convince you to buy it. I've worked in market research long enough to know how many factors contribute to buying decisions. Besides, Dove sells soap, after all, not images of the people in the ads, so the analogy doesn't really work (I totally would have bought a set of postcards or a poster or something like that!).

Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
If the purpose of an advertisment is to enchance the sales of a product... if you liked the advertisment but didn't bought the product, it should be a failure.
Yes, that's true for marketing. But as I said above, we're not talking about "unnecessary sex-centered" advertising of tarot decks, we're talking about the product itself. So the logic goes the other way around: if people liked the Dove ads, they obviously liked seeing "normal" bodies. I'm not sure how representative I am, but my delight in those ads/images was a very emotional one, because they just made me happy. And the women were damn sexy!

Originally Posted by RiccardoLS
In Tarot... if one likes real breast, but then is taken off - at an unconscius level - from the deck and reads with another with Holliwood breast (while saying: oh, I wish this deck would have real breast) we are again on a contracdiction that would need to be explained.
Frankly, I think you should grant us that we know what we like and what we don't like. I mean, if you make the facial expressions or nbody postures of those figures with "normal" bodies look unhappy, embarrassed, or not at ease, then of course we'll pick the deck with the happy Barbies.

But my point is that you CAN make real/"normal" bodies of ALL shapes and forms look sexy, sensual, happy, confident, etc. You just need an artist who's good enough to do that (preferably one who personally loves bigger and/or older people). For examples of what I mean, please look at the Empress, the Universe, the Fool, the Three of Cups, and possibly the Two of Pentacles of the World Spirit Tarot. These are big women, and they're comfortable in their bodies, no matter if they're dressed or undressed. And they're sexy, too, even though the deck doesn't particularly TRY to be sexy. No one says we want to see tons of sagging breasts on old women who are ashamed of their bodies. We (those of who do) want proud, confident women of all sizes who are sensual, and sexual, and not just in a motherly way.

That said... nudity is not sex, and sex is not nudity.
For instance the Brian Williams deck is full of nudes and has little about sex.
And - I admit - I prefer decks that are more raw, and less rarefied, so I prefer decks that have a sex energies within it. But that's me.
Nobody has claimed that nudity equals sex and vice versa. Believe me, I, too, love decks with an undercurrent of sexual energy. But there are so very few out there that appeal to me aesthetically, that I spend my money on other things instead (and not necessarily other tarot decks!). I actually even like the idea of the Decameron but find most of the guys AND the women very very unappealing. I'm not squeamish about explicit depictions of sexuality, but I've checked, and there's ONE truly big woman in that deck (the Empress), and she's been made to look entirely unsexy. (I do admit, however, that the men are more diverse, but that's only half of the equation...)
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