Let´s talk about nudity...

Hi all,
If male nudity becomes as acceptable as female nudity I only hope that the magazines, movie producers, etc don't 'over-endow' the men to the same extent as women have been. Now, THAT would be laughable!

Le Fanu said:

This is just proof of a certain discomfort with the issue, surely? Laughing at something shows we are ill at ease about an issue doesn´t it? It never crosses my mind to think of the male penis as laughable any more than I find - say - trees, laughable. And nudity is the whole. Surely only when we stop looking at disembodied parts do we see the beauty of the whole?

O and I think the generic "movies" you mention is pretty US-based. European cinema has been showing "normal" nudity, unfazed, without making an issue of it for years.

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For some people, probably the majority of the US movie watching public, I imagine "ill at ease" is correct. I suppose it just depends on your sense of humor. I find elephant trunks, giraffe necks, and duck feet rather silly myself, but not because they make me feel ill at ease. They just look funny. I can't explain it. To some, the penis is the same way.

True, the male member rarely makes an appearance in US movies, but there have been some recent movies in which it makes an appearance. Perhaps the most notable recently was in "Forgetting Sarah Marshall", though this too utilized it for comedic purposes.

Getting back to Tarot and art in general...I think it has to do with money ultimately. Worldwide it seems male nudity is more controversial. Regardless of how much male nudity graces the screens of Europe, I'd be willing to bet that female nudity is still more common. Therefore, from a business standpoint, if you want to sell more decks, you try not to include male nudity. Some readers might want to use more tame decks for public readings or readings at parties. So from a businessperson's perspective, male nudity is more "risky".

As to why male nudity is more controversial, my theory is that it has to do with male insecurity more than anything. Some men are very insecure about the issue of size. Therefore the primarily male dominated churches of old made male nudity taboo, to spare a man the confidence demolishing prospect of observing a statue that is better endowed than they are!

That's just a stupid, nonresearched theory. Even if it's wrong...it's still good for a laugh.

Le Fanu said:

Let me get something straight; I love nudity. I know it´s a metaphor for nakedness of spirit, candidness, of being at ease, lack of deceit etc etc. Im not talking about that kind of nakedness. Im talking about tremulous, heaving, breast-baring nudity in which women (never men) go about expressing their time-honoured tarot traditions (pouring from urns, sitting on thrones, holding scales, swords, batons) but with breasts accidentally popping out, and buttocks exaggeratedly pert?

Why does this bother me? Two reasons. It´s not the nakedness as candidness stuff. Secondly, it´s never men. Why don´t we see The Hanging Man naked more often, with gravity-defying member? (Ok, you get it on the Haindl, but when they tried to do it on the Rohrig it was quickly "reissued" as if we weren´t quite ready to deal with it) The nudity is never democratic, it´s a kind of "nudity" from 50 years back. I could be wrong, but I always suspect that the majority of tarot readers are women. Do they want to see this? Some do (Cat, for instance) But do the rest of the female members here not find some of these images a bit uncomfortable or gratuitous or unnecessary? And who do you think they´re aimed at?

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I'm with you on this here. First on what nudity represents in a card, comfort, comfort with oneself (or one's self) and openness and having nothing to hide. And I'm also with you on the male nudity thing. I could go for more of that. LOL

And now that you mention it, if most Tarot readers are women, I presume most would rather see nude males than females...That is what I presume and what makes sense to me...unless I am wrong, but I don't think I am....? So why WOULD decks have more female nudity???? That was a really good question.

Babs

Hi, Sun Chariot!
Just noticed that you revived this post, and read the beginning pages and end pages. Judging by the interest and intelligent responses, and the many varying but well-considered opinions, I suggest that it might be time for AT to assemble a fifth deck...the nude. In this, contributors could fix the problems they perceive with portrayals of nudity in other decks, to their heart's content.
What say you?

And Im holding my breath for the imminent Scarabeo Tarot of Sexual Magic (I think it´s called)

And I bet it´ll be the same old tired goddesses with breasts popping out and men in high collars and overcoats...

Men and nudity.

I think men are not as open as women are... We women have used our bodies to get mens attention... (A tool if you will) Men just cannot help their reactions over all. (In their dna) We women have learned to use this allure. We are more open about it and are more likely to use it to convey a meaning.... (If you want a mans attention, show him something!)

Just my take....

Skydancer said:

Like someone in here has said --- all we really need is a set of basic meanings, and 78 pieces of paper with the name or number and suit written on them. No pictures. Just the name or number. And let our minds work from that. Will be just as effective ... and I'll add, if not more so because we are not being distracted by the face, the hair, the breasts or lack of them, the reality of the male nude upside down. Etc.

Just the piece of paper drawn for the question asked.

Does this make sense to you?
I hope I made my ideas clear.

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Very clear... I've referenced that analogy in my companion book, as I've heard it before and I can appreciate the rationale. Nevertheless there is an entire Tarot publishing industry based on the fact that the vast majority do prefer something on the cards other than a title and number reference, even if an experienced or intuitive reader might not actually need it.

Now I've been involved with the advertising and marketing world all my career so I'm familiar with the selling power of six pack chests and perky breasts. But to be honest I may have been extremely naive over these last few years, but it never occurred to me that nudity in the erotic sense would help the sales of a tarot deck (apart from the Casanova types of course). I assumed as Skydancer alluded to that it would actually be a distraction, in the context of a reading.
I also do know for a fact that nudity can potentially hurt sales as well, as many people contacted me prior to ordering the ToD to clarify if there was any nudity in it. Indicating that it might be an issue for them.
Another indication of the possible negatives of nudity is that some web site and groups do not permit it. Links to my ToD were often not allowed because of these two offending "perky ones".

It's an age-old practice, but that doesn't make it right. It's a form of sexism in itself, as a female attitude toward men. There's a lot more to men than DNA programming, if one gives them the chance to express it.

I think there's a saying somewhere that if one doesn't want to be seen as a sex object, one shouldn't behave like one. I think that should hold for the tarot. At least, for decks that aren't designed as Playboy decks.

Wichasa said:

I think men are not as open as women are... We women have used our bodies to get mens attention... (A tool if you will) Men just cannot help their reactions over all. (In their dna) We women have learned to use this allure. We are more open about it and are more likely to use it to convey a meaning.... (If you want a mans attention, show him something!)

Just my take....

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Yea, they like the negligees, but I bought my bf some leopard underwear once. He just turned three shades of red but would not put them on. ROFL

Babs

Well... actually, if we go into the "natural" level or DNA... it's always the male of the species the one who has to show off his attributes to the member of the other sex.