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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
Posts: 7,888

Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
WellÖ Is there a person out there who doesnít need fortune to do well in life? I donít think so. I think we all need some luck to really do well. If we want to, of course.
True but I think the idea is that the person with a well run ship, so to speak, will be best able to take advantage of the fortune that comes their way. Whereas if the ship is badly managed they will tend to miss out.

Fortune here is not strictly luck in the modern sense. We take luck as being the product of random chance, which may work out to our advantage or our disadvantage. I thinkt there's more to it for the Greeks and Romans. Fortune is not random, it is the way in which the gods influence our lives and has a purpose. You will find the same idea in some Christian teachings - it's God's will - but the Hellenistic view also allows us to influence the gods by behaving in the right way (again Christians might see prayer as such a move. God(s) may or may not respond in the way we want though.

Originally Posted by Ronia
Oddly enough, I started considering myself a lucky person only after I grew up and started planning more. LOL I have another guess here and itís related to Mercury conjunct the Lot. It has nothing to do with Hellenistic astrology but it has to do with the mind Ė when I started thinking of myself as a lucky person, things started to work out although sometimes take quite a bit of time. Coincidence or not, but itís a fact. Now, thatís more about modern psychology but exists in the chart.
I think there's a couple of interesting observations here. From my point of view I'd make a distinction between 'techniques' and 'context'. I don't think it's possible to practice a pure form of Hellenisitc Astrology in the 21st century (even if we had a clear idea of what the pure form was, or even if one existed). In this thread I'm trying to understand the techniques and from their practice decide if they are or are not of use. However that priactise will eventually have to allow for the context of modern life and modern thinking.

I've found that 17th century Astrology has techniques and concepts that still apply to a modern era and can be adapted. Terms like 'melancholy', 'sanguine' , 'choleric' and 'phlegmatic' still have meaning and psychological application. These can in many ways be traced back to Ptloemy, though Ptolemy was atypical. I am not sure whether mainstream Hellenistic Astrology has usable psychological concepts but it might have techniques that can be used in a psychological way - that is the techniques can be adapted to the context of 21st century life. Mercury conjunct the Lot of Fortune might be something that indicates a psychological reaction.

Originally Posted by Ronia
These are also popular qualities for Scorpio Suns too. How do we know itís Saturn playing and not the Scorpio Sun? Iím not sure.
Actually they are, and always have been, the qualities of a dignified or well placed Saturn. Saturn is the planet associated with a careful, rational, disciplined approach to life planning, especially long term planning, as Saturn is the planet of Time - of self restraint or control, operating within our own clear boundaries. Debilitated Saturn or badly placed Saturn is likely to produce the negative side of these qualities, fear of the unknown, an unwillingness to act, turning in on oneself, withdrawing from the world. As Liz Greene points out SAturn is never a bundle of fun, but at a Taskmaster or Teacher he can produce positive results. Think back to the teachers at school. Those that you liked on a personal level may not have left a lasting legacy in terms of knowledge, some that you found a bit ;frightening' or made you 'nervous' may actually have taught you something that lasts. I had two teachers like that at school. I found ther lessons periods of tension because they might ask awkward questions. Towards the time of my time with them, I realised that I was actually learning something from them, unlike some of the other teachers, despite the fact that I was not enamored of the subjects. I stopped resisting and actually worked with them. 50 years later I still have a good grasp of French as a result of a teacher I was slightly afraid of but recognised he knew his jog. To me he encapsulated dignified Saturn.

Originally Posted by Ronia
Thatís interestingÖ So, they didnít pay much attention to the transits? HmÖ
Actually they did but for them Transits was the last thing that you checked, first you had to determine which signs/houses were active. This was identified from the Time Lords (rulers of main or sub periods of your life) Then you looked to the transits to fix the exact timing (well, as near as possible) Transits to inactive houses or planets were seen as being unproductive whereas transits to active houses or planet was seen as a good guide to events.

Originally Posted by Ronia
Iíve been told Mars is the Almuten of my chart. But because I mainly look at transits, progressions and directions, I havenít been able to put him even close to Saturn and even Jupiter in terms of effect on my life. Even now heís been doing many aspects by transit and heís making aspects by progressions and directions, weíll see what heíll produce this time.
Determining the Almuten of a chart (to use a medieval phrase) is not an easy process and includes or excludes factors on a subjective basis and indeed weights those factors on a subjective basis. This means that you can have disagreement on the end result, depending on whose method you use. I've just checked the results of the calculations using Solar Fire, Morinus and Delphic Oracle. I've quoted the scores to show how close it is but I'm not intending to branch off into a consideration of methods.

Solar Fire (Ibn Ezra)

Mars 33
Saturn 27
Moon 26


Saturn 29
Moon [23]
Venus [22]

Delphic Oracle

Moon 32
Saturn 30
Mars 28

The difference in ranking and scores comes down to what factors are included. DO uses the method that Lilly inheritied, the Ibn Ezra method includes factors that are very debatable, the results will also vary somewhat (but not in terms of order) depending on which dignities you use, those cited by Ptolemy or the original Egyptian or Dorothean ones.

The interesting thing though is that they don't come up with random results. Moon and Saturn figure in the top three in every one. Mars is in two and only Venus is a seeming outlier.

Originally Posted by Ronia
OK, but I donít understand how I should see them? I got a bit lost in all these captains and officers. What are Moon and Mars supposed to do? Steer the ship? I donít think Mars is so powerful, I donít know. As about the MoonÖ I do feel her, of course, Iíve always thought sheís one of the strongest planets in my chart.
As I see it Mars sets the destination, Moon sets how the destination is to be achieved but Saturn still steers the ship and is first officer. The captain usually delegates the day to day management of steering anyway and the First Officer is usually the person who has hands on control, under the command of the captain. Whether this is a useful analogy is another matter. I too have doubts about it. I think that if I use it at all, I'll do it from the point of view of running a company and surviving in the market - a sort of Ronia PLC, LOL But that's because it's an analogy that fits to my own career and experience in teaching.

Originally Posted by Ronia
Iím too emotional and too much depending on intuition and feelings for this pair to be my captains, IMHO. There must be a strong female planet somewhere in the steering team.
Well given that the Moon shows up in all three Almuten of the Chart calculations, I think she would make the best choice, as you seem to have more connection with her than Mars. A Moon/Saturn pairing seems to be the suggestion from those calculations but I stress that it's a subjective assessment and there's no reason wny you have to go with two planets at all.
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