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Minderwiz  Minderwiz is offline
Student of Astrology
Join Date: 20 Apr 2002
Location: Wigan, UK
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Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
No, thes eare Cancerian qualities I've experienced personally in my interactions with heavily Cancerian people (not only Sun in Cancer). Not to mention that I'm raising a double water person with Cancerian Ascendant and not only. Ouch. I do respect your description of the Moon here but I stand by what I said about Cancerian over emotionality and weaping tendencies.
That's interesting. I've been married to a double water sign (Cancer Ascendant/Pisces Moon) for 36 years and over emotionality and weeping tendencies is not a strong tenedency with her. Yes, she does have the odd weep, but she's no more 'emotional' than me (Flre + double Air) indeed in many things less so, though we perhaps get 'emotional' about different things. She does have a Capricorn Sun, and I notice that quite strongly, but the Cancer/Pisces tend to show up in physical issues. Her temperament comes out as strongly Phlegmatic on the Lilly scale, and it does fit her nature - contemplative, reserved, shy, slow moving, resigned. She believes in being slow and steady, likes the status quo, and will tend to defer things, all Phlegmatic indicators (and I could go on).

However there's nothing in the classic phlegmatic temperament about being emotional or weepy, Indeed 'phlegmatic' is not associated with displays of emotion. so I suspect that there's more too that side than simply the Water signs - other factors in the chart - or it's a cultural feature (of the 20th/21st centuries.

I think you've hit on an area for me to investigate (though not in this thread)

Originally Posted by Ronia
How do we know if it works or not? I mean, the ancients should have had some tools to give the querent some practical knowledge, no?
I think we would know that from an examination of events in the native's life and how they react and deal (or not deal) with them. I'm not sure Hellenistic Astrologers hung out signs offering counselling services but at a modern level that is one of the roles that the Astrologer takes.

Originally Posted by Ronia
I'm not sure I get this last part.
I'm not quite sure where the last part begins But my point is that Saturn has some essential dignity in your chart. Medieval Astrologers used the scoring system that Lilly took for his Horary Readings. Thus being in Detriment would score -5 (the planet being in it's own sign scored +5). Medieval writers and certainly Lilly followed Ptolemy and had two Triplicity rulers. For Fire it would be Sun by Day and Jupiter by night. Saturn would not be considered at all. However the Hellenistic Astrologers mainly used three Triplcity rulers, and not the ones that you would automatically expect. Thus for them Fire had the same two as the medieval and later usage but added a third one, a Co-operating or Participating ruler, and for Fire this was Saturn (Mars being a nocturnal planet was not considered). Now by Lilly's time only the Lord of Sect was considered, so in your chart the Sun would have scored 3 and Jupiter 0. But some Medieval writers seemed to allow even the out of sect ruler to score, and it seems that, even though they didn't score it as such, the Hellenistic Astrologers would count the Co-operating Lord as being in it's own Trigon. So if we allow Saturn to score +3 it's overall score would be -5+1+3=-1. A mild debility. The Hellenisitic Astrologers seem to give more weight to the Bounds and the Decans, so it might be possible to argue that on essential Dignity, Saturn is not debilitated.

Isn't that vital? In my point of view, if the ability to be ourselves is weak to absent, there is no fortune that will help... May be I'm wrong but to me the drive is the Sun. The source of energy. The coal in the engine or the gas. Without it, no engine would work. By the way, I do act as this Sun in this sign, I do not act as Mars in Cancer. May be due to the trine between them, I'm not sure about it.
I think there's a difference between 'vital' and 'drive'. The Sun is certainly necessary for life and I would say it is the engine, though the fuel level is indeed important and positively correlated with vital signs. However if the engine is not connected to the works (no drive shaft or no propeller shaft) then the engine's power is not transmitted to what ever it's meant to drive. Mars is the drive shaft or drive mechanism which translates the engine's power into action. I'm not trying to downgrade the Sun here. If the motor is weak or dead, no matter how wonderful the drive mechanism is, nothing will happen, whereas a strong engine may still produce some action, even with a weak driveshaft. Or if you like the energy of the Sun needs to be able to translate into action and Mars is the planet that's supposed to do that.

Edited to add:

You have a very strong connection between Sun and Mars, a trine to within 2 degrees. In this case, having done a little more reading around, it looks like the Sun would dominate as Mars 'crashes' into the Sun's (astrological) rays. The trine is a good working link between engine and drive shaft, and actually they might works so well together that you see them as one unit. That's just a thought but it might explain why you tend not to notice Mars in action.
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