The origin of Tarot, Kris Hadar, and Occitania

Namadev said:

Hi,

For those who would be interested by the link "Catharism and Tarot", two links :
1)in English :Bob O'Neill "Catharism and Tarot"
http://www.ninalee.com/sst
2)in French : Tarot-Fr 3Recherches historiques atypiques"
http://www.tarot-fr.com

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1) is a good general essay, in Bob's broadly brushed way

Be warned of some errors and a major flaw however. For instance, many Trobars (troubadours) were openly critical of the Church, and some were charged with heresy, such as Aimeric de Péguilhan, Guilhem Figuera, and Uc de Saint Circ. Aimeric actually died in Lomabary (perhaps Ferrara), and Uc de Saint Circ also went to Italy, fleeing the crusade against the Cathars.

Bob claims they were not, relying on a source that I cannot find, and which is certainly not present in any bibliographies that I have checked (scores).

The major flaw is that he does not show how Joachism transmitted Cathar ideas. Joachim actually explicitly made sure to distinguish himself from the heretics, as I remember.

There is no need to find a chain of transmission for the heresy from the Languedoc anyway, since both Joachism and Catharism, and Waldensianism, were present in northern Italy already, and very strongly in and around Milan, and in Piedmont. Milan is actually kind of a "capital" of heresy.

Ross

Hi Ross,

1)Yes, you're right about the "troubadours" : the Fin Amor and their "Lady" was the Cathari church.
2)Joachim de Flore ideas were vehiculated by the Spirituals Franciscans ; in Beziers for example, they were closely linked to to the neo-cathari...
Documentation on this point while the debate on Bob 's article with Mickael Hurst and myself...on TarotL (see archives of the group).

Ross G Caldwell said:

Everyone says "tarot" is simply a French form of Italian "tarocchi". Tarocchi comes for the first time in 1516, in the same account books of the Este family that has the first mention of "carte da trionfi" 74 years earlier.
....

The derivation of "tarot" from "tarocchi" still puzzles me a little however. How did that final "t" get on there? Nobody has bothered to ask the question that I can find. There is also the strange plural form in French "tarots" which matches the Italian "tarocchi" (singular "tarocco"). How did a word so clearly related in time and place end up so different?

In French a final "c" is not pronounced, so maybe they left it off, pronounced "taro" (="tarau"). But why not "taroque"? That would be a fine French form of the Italian word... but for some reason, it didn't happen that way.

Ross

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From French-English dictionary:

Taraire. as Tariere.
Tarault. as Tariere; also as Tarots.
Tariere:f. An augur.
Related words are:
Tarelle: f. An augur.
Tarelet:. m. A little augur.
Tarots:m. A kind of great cards, whereon many several things are figured, which make them much more intricate than ordinary ones.

From:
A Dictionarie of the French and English Tongues
Compiled by Randle Cotgrave
London
Printed by Adam Islip
Anno 1611

Available online here:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cotgrave/

Kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:

How did that final "t" get on there?

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The Gypsies name a doer after the thing done, and add an "O"
which since Romany for cards is "Tar" the "Tar-O" is a reader.
The final "T" was added because nobody knew how to spell it.

kwaw said:

From French-English dictionary:

Tarault. as Tariere; also as Tarots.
Tariere:f. An augur.

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Definitions of 'Augur':
Noun

An augur (in Rome usually a senator) was a highly respected religious figure, who belonged to a college of priests skilled in interpreting augeries, which were messages from the gods. They looked for ominous signs in nature, by studying things such as cloud shapes, the flight of individual or flocks of birds or lightning. They were consulted before any official action and could interrupt any discussion or decision if they had perceived a divine sign: 2 words were enough: alia die (till another day).
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/temetfutue/glossary/glossaryA.htm

However, 'tariere a'boiste' means a 'wimble', which is an 'auger', that is a hand tool for boring holes

As much as it would be nice for this archaic french 'tarots' = 'augur' as in divination, Modern French I think supports the latter, ie:
Taraud: n.m - screw tap
Taraudage: n.m - tapping a hole for a screw; threaded hole
Tarauder (v) tap (a hole for a screw); (Literature) torment.

So unless anyone can come up with a good reason why a pack of cards are named after a tool to bore holes, I think it is likely a coincidental homophone between 'tarots - hole borer' and 'tarots - card game'.

So we return to Italy, John Flavio's definition I think remains a strong contender:

John Florio, 'A World of Words' (1598)

Tarócchi - a kinde of playing cardes vsed in Italy, called
terrestriall tri*-umphes.

Taroccare - to play at Tarócchi.Also to play the froward gull or
peeuish ninnie.

That is 'taroccare', according to this 16th century Italian -English dictionary, means 'to play the fool'.

Kwaw

kwaw said:

So unless anyone can come up with a good reason why a pack of cards are named after a tool to bore holes, I think it is likely a coincidental homophone between 'tarots - hole borer' and 'tarots - card game'.

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Weeeeell...

how about: tarot is a game that bores holes in our brains as we try to figure out its true origin, meaning, message, kabbalistic correspondence, etc...

In other words, it is a metaphor for a metaphor

I'll go further - tarot torments us!

"Le Tarot me taraude l'esprit". And for many of us - it does!

Apparently it can mean a tool for engraving (in stone]as well for boring holes.

In a roundabout way one of the titles of the fool card [le fou] takes us back to the word tarot as auger, a 'hole borer'.

'Fou' in Cotgrave's French-English dictionary is given as a corruption of 'Fors', out of doors, abroad, [as in 'buvet fou', drink out, 'venez fou', come out].

The Italian for the French word 'Fors/Fou' is 'Fora'.

In Florio's Italian-English dictionary 'Fora' means not only outside, abroad; but an auger [a borer, a piercer, a wimble]. Which as we have shown was also called in French, Tarault, Tariere, Tarot.

'Fora' is used in Dante to mean 'wounds, hurts', similar to the literary use of tarault/tariere/tarot to mean 'torment'.

To make a hole is to create an empty space - like zero, or 'nihil' as steele describes the function of the fool

Kwaw

And "forer" in French, of course, still means to dig for something underground (water, oil, etc.). We are back to digging. I wonder if the Fool's large spoon was his instrument for "forer"?

Helvetica said:

And "forer" in French, of course, still means to dig for something underground (water, oil, etc.). We are back to digging. I wonder if the Fool's large spoon was his instrument for "forer"?

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Randle Cotgrave in A Dictionary of the French and English Tongues (1611) gives:

Fore: f. as For; a Court [wherein pleadings are heard]
For: [as prefix], out or without.
Foré: m. ée: f. Bored, pierced; wherein holes are made.
Forer: To bore, pierce, make holes in.

So definititely cognate with the Italian 'fora' as a tool to pierce or make holes in.

Kwaw

Following up on a suggestion by Diane O'Donovan that there maybe relevance of the 'hole-borer' and to Cribbage games, I learnt cribbage is related to the older game 'noddy':

http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Cribbage.htm

and 'noddy' in English was of course [as I have shown in previous dictionary definitions] a sysnonym for 'fool' [and as explained previously, there maybe a connection between a title of the fool 'fou', and fora/fore, hole maker].

The cribbage board itself can perhaps be traced back the much older mancala board:

http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Mancala.htm

So there is a possible connection between the name 'tarot' and the french word 'tariere, tarot' meaning 'hole-maker'.

Kwaw