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The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation.

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MikeH  MikeH is offline
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Fame, World, CY, and PMB, Part 2

(continuation from Part 1 of "Fame, World, CY, and PMB"


Datable personal and family information is useful for dating a deck. But it does not necessarily mean that the deck was made right after the event. It just means that it was made no earlier; the evidence may also point to a later date. It may be that some deck was made for the wedding in 1441, that Filippo helped design it. But was it the CY as we know it? Francesco and Bianca spent the next few years traveling from place to place at short notice, taking their belongings with them. Even a wedding deck could easily have been lost. It is not likely to have been given by Filippo much after the wedding, as relations between him and the couple deteriorated rapidly. But it could have been made after 1450, when Francesco was making inquiries and wanting to purchase some decks.

One reason for doing so would, of course, be to make to make Bianca happy, if the old deck had been lost, badly painted, or for some reason started but never completed. In earlier posts I suggested that the structure of the Cary-Yale is closely connected with that of the Michelino. Filippo would have understood the connection best, but 15 year old Bianca would have known something. And just at that later time, in late 1449, there was the discovery of the Michelino deck by Sforza's comrade and friend Marcello, as Trionfi has documented, in the period immediately preceding their parting of the ways in December of 1449 (http://trionfi.com/0/b/03/). Considering that the Michelino was "invented" by his wife's father, one would expect that Marcello would have given full particulars to Francesco, and perhaps even the book he found describing the game, as he sends only a copy to Isabella, Queen of Lorraine, claiming the original is damaged. (Huck, please correct me if I misread any of Trionfi’s page on Marcello. Although I appreciate very much the English translation, I found it a bit hard to follow.)

For Francesco, the production of the CY also would have served the purpose of bolstering the legitimacy of the Sforza regime. After all, the cards have holes on the top, as though displayed for some purpose. The purpose could have been to show the continuity between the old regime and the new, so as to convey that Francesco, whose sons would have Filippo as their grandfather, was in the normal line of succession. There is a whole book about the propaganda campaign Francesco waged, partly to keep other Italian states from attacking him, (e.g. Alfonso of Naples, to whom Filippo had willed Milan); partly to get recognition from the Emperor as Duke (as the old terms for ducal inheritance did not extend to him); and partly to assuage the Lombardy nobility (Francesco was not even of noble birth). See Humanistic Historiography Under the Sforzas: Politics and Propaganda in Fifteenth-Century Milan, by Gary Ianziti. In this campaign the cards could have been re-creations, or created from scratch, in the old style, with mostly Visconti devices, to give the impression to the nobles of a kind of holy relic preserved by the Sforzas for love of Filippo. Furthermore,in 1452, when Bembo's workshop re-opened, there is no problem about the same artist doing the work as did the "Lancelot of the Lake," and later the original PMB. It could even have been Bembo for all of them. If there was a lost 1441 deck, perhaps that artist provided old sketches.

Mingled with the lovingly “preserved” Visconti emblems, the deck has Sforza heraldic devices as well, as though testifying to the great love Filippo bore Francesco in the days before he lost his mind. The Sforza device of the hexagonal fountain appears in several CY cards, as Kaplan (vol. 1, p. 62) and Dumnmett (The Visconti-Sforza Tarot Cards, p. 13) observe. The male's front on the Love card and that of three Baton court figures have Sforza fountains. Dummett says there are Sforza branches on the CY Swords, but I have found no confirmation that branches were Sforza devices. These emblems, if nothing else, would seem to rule out a pre-1441 date. But the deck could have been done either in 1441 or after 1451.

Then there are the coins on the CY suit of Coins. Dummett says they are replicas of coins issued by Filippo *The Visconti-Sforza Tarot Cards. Pollet (http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards31.htm) disagrees, saying that they differ from Filippo's in two respects: first, Filippo's coins were silver rather than gold; and second, they did not have "FILIP MARIA DUCHA" written around the circumference, as do the ones on the card. Pollett says that it was Francesco who issued gold coins; they had a similar picture of a rider on horseback, but with the words "DUX MEDIOLANI"-"Duke (lord) of Milan.”

If the cards were made in 1441, there is no difficulty in using gold leaf paint for the gold imprint of silver coins. The difficulty is in the imprint "FILIP MARIA DUCHA" on all the images of coins in the pip cards. They look to me all the same and all in the style not of painting but of coin-design, an entirely different trade. Filippo would have had to arrange the making of some non-circulating samples, made from a new mold, just for the purpose of the cards. If he took the trouble to do that, why wouldn't he just continue making new real coins the same way, with his name on them?

Francesco would have had both the stronger motive and the easier time making the coins for the deck. One motive could be to simulate a deck from the previous ruler. To do so, all he had to do was ask the people who made the molds to make another version at the same time. Or perhaps he had planned a commemorative coin and then decided against it. So instead he put the commemorative on the cards.

Let us suppose that Pollett is wrong, and that Filippo did issue the coins with his name on them, none of which survived for us to see. That still would not prove anything. At that time, enough coins would have survived for Francesco's use.

If Francesco commissioned the CY in 1451 or so, a question arises. Why is the old battle incident important? Is Piccinnino, or an heir, still active and able to cause trouble? Perhaps he is just on the card (in the boat) because he was there in the original deck, now lost. Or perhaps it is something for Francesco and Bianca to laugh about, from the bad old days, the unwise but resourceful old fool in the gunny sack.

Regarding that incident, there is also a problem if the deck was done while Filippo was Duke. The incident does not seem to put Francesco in a very favorable light, showing how undisciplined a subordinate was. I seem to remember in Huck's text (but I can't find it now) that Filippo criticized Francesco on these grounds. If Filippo was the one making the decision to put the incident on the card, it would constitute a snide insult to Francesco. I would imagine that his advisers would have disapproved. On the other hand, if Francesco was the one making the decision, then it would to be rubbing Filippo's face in the mud for his treatment of him. This delicate issue would not have arisen after Filippo’s death.

But the question of when the deck was done is a minor one, in relation to the Fame/World card; either 1441 or 1452 will do. It's the interpretation of the card that matters, because it shows how important the card was to the overall conception of the sequence.


The point is that whatever it was called, the card is the last or second to the last, part of the culmination of the series, here as in the decks that followed. It would not likely have been dropped from the new hand-painted deck, as Huck is saying was done in the original PMB, especially since the card, in some form, seems to have been in all the other cities (unlike the three theological virtues). So that is one card more than the 14 Huck stipulates for the original. I will get to the other two in another post. (I need to brush up on my Lubkin first.)

But if the original PMB was done later, and it was the CY that was completed in 1452, then there might be another layer of meaning to the deck, for both the CY and the original PMB that followed (which also has holes in the cards for displaying). The cards might be describing, in part and among other meanings, the archetypal hero's journey of Francesco himself. He is the lowly beggar of the PMB Fool, then the Lover (CY, PMB), with Bianca as the lady. He is the groom on the CY Chariot, his wife the lady. (I will not mention the court cards.) Filippo is the Hunchback (PMB), Francesco's revered mentor (for public consumption, that is). Filippo is also the sick Fisher King (CY Emperor, in relation to the 14th century manuscipt with Galahad). Francesco is also the one who falls out of favor (CY and PMB Wheel), who is excommunicated (PMB Pope and Hanged Man), and faces Death a thousand times (CY and PMB). Man and wife remain restrained (CY and PMB Temperance), courageous (CY, PMB), and with Hope, Faith, and Charity (all CY). With Francesco as the Fame/World card knight on the shore, they attain the Grail-castle they had once almost had but lost, the Duchy of Milan, the New Jerusalem here and now, however briefly it may stay, ruled by its Philosopher-King, following the dictates of Justice (PMB), as portrayed by his wife, the heir of Milan, whose loyal knight he is.

I will hopefully complete this series of posts in a few days, with one covering the 6 virtues and 3 luminaries in Milan 1452-1472.
Top   #21
MikeH  MikeH is offline
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CY Chariot bird

Yes, very interesting, Huck. I have in the past stared at that bird on the chariot for hours and not had a clue to its significance. I thought it was a rider on a bird, as in some of the black and white Knght cards that Kaplan reproduces in his Vol. 2. But your enhancement shows it clearly as a bird with big wings and a long tail. I, of course, think it is a phoenix, especially from the association with gold, the solar color, on the Coin court cards as well. The phoenix is one of the suits in the Michelino, as you pointed out somewhere. And so is the eagle, which is on the Emperor and the Empress. I will be looking for other birds or interesting animals in the CY.
Top   #22
Huck  Huck is offline
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in the development of Trionfi.com we came to the opinion, that the "female factor" was not valued enough.

Playing cards at court were a matter of women mostly. In Savoy at 1430 there was a law, that it was not allowed to play with cards, with the exception, that it was played with women.
The law was repeated still in 1470.

Savoy is not Milan, naturally.

But controlling the playing card development in Ferrara by known documents, it appeared, that there was a first series of documents between 1422-24. In 3 of 4 documents Parisina, wife of Niccolo d'Este, is mentioned. The tragical death of Parisina followed in 1425. With that we have a time, where in Ferrara no playing cards documents appear to the surface.

The development with the cards restarts, when the Ferrarese girls become old enough to marry - that's about 1433/1434. From this to 1443 there are occasionally playing cards mentioned in the account books, with 1442 two times Trionfi cards are introduced, and in 1443 a series of Imperatori cards notes. Imperatori cards had been considerably cheaper than Trionfi cards.

Then in the years 1444-1449 there is nothing about playing card production notes in Ferrara with one unimportant exception in 1446.
As reason for this development we see that pope Eugen, a weak pope at his begin, became successful in this period. Eugen was close to the Franciscans (San Bernardino, St Capistranus) ... and the Franciscan's (especially San Bernardino) were the motor of playing card prohibition, cities edited laws, which carry the name of his reform attempts.

Generally it was observable, that playing card laws in Milan issued by Filippo Maria Visconti were tolerant against playing cards (1421-1429), playing card laws around Florence (each city and village had its own solution in the question) less tolerant, with a sort of prohibiton climax in just the same period, when we observe the document pause in Ferrara and Pope Eugen's success.

A 3rd factor might have been, that Leonello married 1445 a daughter of Alfonso of Aragon. Bisticci, the Florentian biograph, gave us a story, according which Alfonso played cards in his youth, but left it with decision to the better, when 18 years old. From this (and the missing of playing card notes) we may conclude, that Alfonso in Naples banned the playing cards at his court (and so his daughter had no use for them, when finally in Ferrara, and she had then as first Lady the first word in female matters, playing cards were then not part of the female amusing. She died 1449. In 1450 we see the first new playing card activity.

For Naples we have PUNCTUALLY Trionfi card notes 1473/74, when the daughters of the new king Ferrante are old enough to marry.

Playing card laws were occasionally formulated in the sense, that playing was only allowed at specific occasions or specific locations or at specific times (especially in the winter time - for logical reasons).

For the courts we have to assume, that men were allowed to play chess, tennis or have knightly tournaments and hunting for amusement. The Trionfi scene painted in Pavia 1469 (destroyed, only known by document) were made in the room, "where the women eat".

With the death of the conservative Eugen 1447 we've an observable humanistic jump: the new pope Nicolaus is a book collector by heart - so also the climate for playing cards changed. Nicolaus has to prepare for the Jubilee year (1450), many foreigners shall come to Italy and this promises income and a friendly welcome is needed. So one has to tolerate foreign customs. But first the Italian wars shall stop. Sforza is able to settle his matter in February/March 1450. The original Milanese/Venetian plan was, that Sforza didn't get this success, but both agreed in peace before - punctually to the Jubilee year season. But Sforza took surprizing military action in winter around Christmas - against all logical customs - and was victorious against the interests of two big cities.

No, I would think, that the Cary-Yale was ready in October 1441 - or at least a very short time after. And it was probably not Bembo. The Zavattari
brothers are a hot name, they worked in the Milan Dome and also at Monza.


As far I know, Bembo becomes known 1446 with the Lancelot work. So he's not really exspected to have worked 1441.



"Il probabile committente fu Filippo Maria Visconti.

L'inizio dei lavori è da fissarsi al 1444, data riportata dall'iscrizione sulla parete di destra, mentre il loro completamento dovette avvenire entro il 1446. Il ciclo costituisce una delle più significative testimonianze della pittura tardogotica in Lombardia. "

The frescoes were made 1444-46. The commissioner was probably Filippo Maria Visconti.

Bianca Maria was 16 years old, when she married and got as dowry the city of Cremona. But she went with Sforza to the Marches, and had a lot of other things to do, especially getting her first son. So there was not too much time for Cremona.
Cremona became interesting, when it was attacked in 1446.
In the same moment Bonifacio Bembo appears on the surface ... surely not accidently. It was time for Sforza to check what was possible with Milan and the dukedom and the sick Visconti. And Sforza had been considerably reduced in his influences in the Marches around this time.

There is an additional argument for 1441 at ...

Arguments for 1441
This is a much shorter argument, but it has an alarming content. One should keep in mind, that the Cary-Yale was considered often enough a deck, which served as present for the wedding of Francesco and Bianca Maria Visconti.

Fact 1: In the year 1441 Francesco Sforza, * 1401, married Bianca Maria Visconti, * 1425. This means: A man of 40 years married a girl of 16 years in age, and he is with that 24 years older than she. Remember the numbers: 40 - 16 - 24.

Fact 2: The Cary Yale survived only in fragmentarious form. However, it is plausible, that it had originally 40 numbers and 24 court cards (an unusual court card number, and we know it only from this deck). Additionally there are 11 trumps and their true original number is a riddle. However, the most probable number seems to be 16 (see Cary-Yale-article). With that you have the same numbers as above: 40 - 16 - 24

Could that have happened accidently? It's not impossible, but unlikely. And Filippo Maria, a man, who was highly superstitious and fond of astrology and probably also of numerology, was the right man to look at such things.

1441 is also a very good date.

When following the representations about Francesco Sforza in history books, there's a factor, which mostly is overlooked by the reporting historians: his big family.

The page http://condottieridiventura.it/ is based on the work of a single man (not sure, if he's historian), who carried the material together from here and there, a vast compendium of sources. This tool is extremelyvaluable to follow the biographical lines of specific persons.
For instance you make up your mind, who all had been a Sforza and what his activities were with the letter "S" and you find there


... all only condottieri, for instance names like Galeazzo Maria Sforza (duke of Milan, son of Francesco) or Tristano Sforza (important diplomat, son of Francesco) you don't find between them, cause they weren't active as condottiero.
If you go through the lifes, then you find, that most of the Sforzas worked together with the exception of Alessandro ... who in war could appear at the the other side.
Many others families of the renaissance have blood and murder between relatives in their chronology - you don't find this between the early Sforzas. They cooperated and worked together, forming a network of possible activities and operations. Sforza could operate part of his armies via letters, as he knew, that the addressed people were reliable, cause they were relatives and understood specific basics.
In its scheme it was comparable to family structures in Mafia families. The system "Sforza", born already under Muzio Attendola, "worked". The family became very successful - as descendants from a farmer family, still in ca. 1380.
Each member of the family profited, and one became very famous and finally it looked, as if he had done all alone. But reality is a little bit different.

It's interesting to study the single biographical lines and look, how they all run together.


I don't know, how the coins were designed at the cards. Possibly with the same stamps, which with the coins were hammered.

It wouldn't hurt the currency of money or the design of cards, if some stamps motifs existed, which never found distribution as money or had only ornamental/heraldic function - and which were used for the cards.

Heraldic painting or the construction of family symbols was a complex job in 15th century.
The Tarocchi painter Sagramoro had a major occupation as heraldic designer. The cards were only a minor contribution of him - probably he was chosen for them, as he had much experience with the d'Este heraldic, which should also appear at d'Este cards. Generally the minor "unknown" artist Sagramoro (in art dictionaries very seldom noted) was the artist with the most commissions at the d'Este court. Probably he had a larger workshop and could offer good prices for the everyday art.
Top   #23
Huck  Huck is offline
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To Teodolinda and Zavattari:


said to be from 6th century made in context to Teodlinda

"Birds" ... not really similar but birds appear in the Cary-Yale.


the Visconti coin, the person is Filippo Maria Visconti. Signifying is the hat, now called "Visconti-hat".

The person with the Visconti-hat (not totally precise) is the central figure, placed beside Theolinda.

A picture, which can only be seen at the original page:

The man with Visconti-hat is the central person on horse in the overall scene

The local scene looks like this:

There's not much in English Wiki:

more in German Wiki

more in Italian wiki

but better is an older biography from a German biographical dictionary:

additionally this info about her father is interesting:

Garibald ist the first known duke of Bavaria, other imporatant forces are the Franken (Merowinger) and the Langobarden. Theudelinde (=Teodolinda) is a marriage object, first offered to the Merowinger, but then going to the Longobards, marrying 2 Langobardian kings.
Some parts are of legendary character, so Authari, her first husband, made disguised a journey to the Bavarian to see his new bride with own eyes. Teodolinda recognizes him, but he stays hidden to the others. When he left the country, something very special happens ...

"Als Th. dies erröthend ihrer Kammerfrau erzählt, meint diese, der vermeinte Gesandte könne kein anderer sein als ihr Verlobter.
Mit einem bairischen Ehrengeleite ziehen dann die Langobarden heim, an der bairisch-italienischen Grenze aber hebt sich Authari, so hoch er kann, im Sattel und schleudert seine Streitaxt wuchtig in einen Baum, indem er ausruft: Solche Hiebe führt Authari! Da erkennen auch die bairischen Herren, daß er der Langobardenkönig selber sei."

.. "he throws an axe in a tree" and so he is recognized as Authari.

This story we do know somehow from the Sforza legend, where also "an axe" (actually more the axe of a farmer) "was thrown" (in oracular meaning) "in a tree" and Muzio Attendolo took up his way to become a famous condottiero.

from "La Sfera", an illuminated version of the astronomical text, made under Sforza ca. 1470, became a present for the marriage of Anna Sforza / Alfonso d'Este 1491.

Now Teodolinda married Authari, but Authari didn't live long (1 year later dead). So she married a second Langobard, who became king by her own choice. This was the right one, as he endured some time longer (till 615).
Teodolinda was queen from 590 - 628, 38 years, in peaceful manner and "good for the church".

Another legend tells, that her son was the result of a sexual attack of a monster of the see on Teodolinda, when taking a walk at the beach. As this it became part of hero legends.

"Theodelindens Name ward auch willkürlich mit einer grotesken Sage verknüpft, die auf dem Boden merovingischer Ueberlieferungen erwachsen ist: am Strande wandelnd, wird die Königin von einem Meerungethüm überfallen und bezwungen; der Sohn, den sie später zur Welt bringt, trägt die Spuren seiner unmenschlichen Abkunft. Die uralte Sage ist überliefert in Boccaccio´s Decamerone III, 2, in dem Gedichte „Das Meerwunder“ im Heldenbuche Caspar´s von der Roen, sowie in einem Meisterliede und einem Spruchgedichte des Hans Sachs."

I checked the Decamerone, but it is not a sea monster story.


It's strange to find Filippo Maria Visconti giving order to decorate the Teodolinda Chapel in Monza, one year after his single daughter married a man with an "axe-on-oak-tree"-story and a similar "axe-on-tree-story" appears in Teodolinda's legend.
When Filippo gave some strength to the Teodolindo-Story by ordering the paintings, he created in the political reality of 1442/43 the possibility of a Lombardian Queen - as his father Giangaleazzo already played with the plan to become a King in Northern Italy, Filippo's idea might be not total unrealistic. And Filippo had only this daughter and his last years were dominated by his considerations, what would happen to the Milanese Duchy after his death (before his death he was a longer time rather sick - unluckily it's difficult to get secure dates about the development of this sickness. )

So he seems to have a positive stand towards his daughter, but it's not clear, how he saw his son-in-law or what he intended to do to him. He send Piccinino and Piccinino made war on the side of the church (Eugen and Filippo Maria in alliance - that was possible then). Piccinino got Sforza in a difficult position (again) and Filippo called Piccinino back to Milan, demanded to leave his troops unguided. Sforza used the opportunity and changed things to his favor.

August 1444:
"Sforzeschi: 3000 cavalli, 3000 fanti;
Pontifici: 5000 cavalli. I pontifici sono colti di sorpresa con i capitani ancora impegnati nel consiglio di guerra. Gli sforzeschi catturano 2000 cavalli, numerosi fanti e si impadroniscono di tutti i carriaggi.

So Sforza captured a half army and all the luggage. Big victory.

Niccolò Piccinino (1386 - October 15, 1444)

Piccinino got sick about it in Milan (one of his sons became prisoner) and died, if this not happened cause Filippo Visconti helped with some poison.
All this in 1444, the year, when Galeazzo Maria was born in January as the long desired "male Visconti heir".

About all this vague relation full of suspicions between the both stands the question, who in December 26, 1441, really poisoned Niccolo d'Este.

35 years later, duke Galeazzo Maria died assassinated, precisely also St. Stephen's day, 26. Dezember, son of Francesco Sforza, grandson of Filippo Maria Visconti, and long desired male heir of the Visconti line.

The detail in the Teodolinda, that the first husband died early, might have pleased Filippo. Perhaps he hoped, that Sforza earlier or later would die in his adventures. Perhaps his play with Borso d'Este, which for some time was kept as a honored guest by Visconti, was a preparation for this second husband.
But Sforza didn't prefer to die soon. Borso went home (would be nice to get precise dates for this intermezzo).
Top   #24
Ross G Caldwell's Avatar
Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
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Ross G Caldwell 

Hi Mike,

Filippo Maria Visconti did in fact mint gold ducats exactly as they appear on the Brambilla and Cary Yale Coins suit.

From Carlo Crippa, "Le monete di Milano dai Visconti agli Sforza - dal 1329 al 1535" (Milano, 1986).

Hard to see the writing on the obverse, but according to Crippa it is "FILIPPVS MARIA ANGLVS"

The reverse is "DVX MED IOL ANVM" (Dux Mediolanum, Duke of Milan), and in the center FI MA (for FIlippo MAria).

Cf. to the Brambilla card images -

And Cary Yale -

(thanks to Raimondo Luberti for getting this information from Crippa many years ago on the LTarot list)

Top   #25

Huck  Huck is offline
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hi Ross

I remembered, that Ray Luberti brought the informations about the coins, but looking myself at them with some care, I discovered that at least one motif - the bird - is insecure, if it refered to real money - and it's in doubt if this is always the same bird. I'm also not sure, if all number cards 3-10 are composed by the same coin type (the horseman + reverse), even the large scans at the Beinecke library are not good enough to decide this.
Top   #26
Huck  Huck is offline
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This was, what I looked for. And, as one can see, there is also an explanation for the "Sea Monster", mentioned in my collection before.

According to the legend, the church was commissioned by the Lombard Queen of Italy, Theodelinda. She had made a vow to build a church entitled to St. John, and when RIDING ALONG THE LAMBRO RIVER, she was halted by a DOVE who told her Modo, Latin for "here", to which she replied Etiam ("yes") . Monza itself was initially known as Modoetia.
I quoted the link before, but I missed the passage.

There is the searched "DOVE" ... in the sea monster story noted by the German biography dictionary the Queen walked at the beach, in the Wikipedia it's a river (Lambro, river of 130 km length through Monza, taking its way to the Po), and it is a dove and not a sea-monster.

Naturally it's the question, who was first, sea-monster or dove? Looks like a christianised pagan version of something, just an earlier pagan myth.

And how came the Dolphin to the Dauphine?

Heraldic of Monza ( from http://www.ngw.nl/int/ita/m/monza.htm ):

The pictures have a comment:
The arms show a crown and a cross, with the motto "Modoetia magni est sedes Italiae regni" ("Modoetia - the ancient name of Monza - is the capital of the great kingdom of Italy"). In Monza the "iron crown", used for the coronation of the Italian kings, is kept. The legend tells that the crown was made with gold and one iron nail of the Holy Cross. "

... after some curiousity and astonishment I found the simple solution ...

... it's not the Dauphine sea-monster, it's the Visconti-Viper and the Teodolinda's husband Nr. 2 Aginulfus is Agistulfus Rex, mentioned on the big long list of ancestors, carefully collected by Giangaleazzo Visconti to manifest his approach to the duke title bought from King Wenzel and in fine manner edited 1403 by nobody else than the later Trionfi card painter Michelino da Besozzo.

And the monstruous maneating Visconter Viper is probably the meandering water of the river Lambra, which occasionally surely had caused dangerous floodings, as it was feeded by the north lying big lakes, mainly Lake of Como. And if one follows rivers and lakes one naturally finds ways across the alps and might reach after some time Bavaria - better tried in summer than in winter.

... and this is thought to be a hen with 7 chicken, symbolizing Lombardy and seven provinces.
Top   #27
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Bernice  Bernice is offline
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Moderator Reminder.


Whilst an examination of doves and coins may be pertinent to this investigation, please remember to relate your posts to the 5x14 theory.

Moderator:- Historical Research, Marseilles & Other Early Decks.
Top   #28
MikeH  MikeH is offline
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topic, off

I think that the question of coins in general, relating to the Cary-Yale, PMB, and other Milan decks is very much on topic and belongs here. Ross's post was very relevant, responding to my question about the coins in the CY Coin suit and how they may be used as evidence in dating the deck. I hope that continued discussion of this topic can be in this thread. (Since there is unclarity about which thread this discussion belongs in, I advise people to look in both until the issue is resolved.)

As to birds, well, that is a specialized subtopic in the more general topic of the CY's imagery, relating to the Michelino's bird-suits but also to heraldic birds in the various families (Visconti and Sforza primarily). Perhaps Huck should have titled his new thread, "birds in coins in the Cary-Yale" or maybe "birds in the Cary-Yale," as opposed to "birds and coins in the Cary-Yale." It would not be off-topic here, in my meager non-specialist--shall I say "beginner"?-- understanding of the term "topic," but since it is a big subject it is tidier to open a new thread. Huck's adventure there is an interesting one, one I like joining.

Then there is the question of where the hen and chicks belong, since they are birds in gold but not on gold coins. I will keep shuttling between the two threads and posting as best I can.

On another subject: I didn't understand what Huck's conclusion was about the heraldic device of the red cross on the white field and vice versa: in your second post on the subject, do you conclude that the one on the CY Love card is a generic device or particular to Savoy? Please spoon-feed me a little. I am working on figuring out for myself the logic of the sea monster posts. I will let you know if I fail.

Also, I notice that Huck edited the last post on page 2 of this thread considerably later than when I read it. (The post may have a number, but I don't see how to access it.) I can't tell if he changed anything important or not. By the same token, I added a paragraph to my post just after the one where Huck announced his new thread, but probably after Huck read it. I did add something, not anything ground-breaking, just less thick-headed, once Huck's material on the new thread had sunk in. I probably should have put it in a new post, but by then the threads--both of them--had gone elsewhere. So I tell you now.
Top   #29
Huck  Huck is offline
Join Date: 02 Jul 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,682

hi Mike,
please let us not discuss, if the title correct ..:-)
there were some questions and I try to give satisfying answers

Originally Posted by MikeH
On another subject: I didn't understand what Huck's conclusion was about the heraldic device of the red cross on the white field and vice versa: in your second post on the subject, do you conclude that the one on the CY Love card is a generic device or particular to Savoy?
I personally don't think, that it is from Savoy, otherwise I would see difficulties with the dating to October 1441. If the earlier mentioned Czechian heraldic rule would be extendable to Italy, then the white cross at red ground might belong to a mercenary group. Perhaps "Sforzeschi" and "Braccheschi" had such shields - I don't know.

Also, I notice that Huck edited the last post on page 2 of this thread considerably later than when I read it. (The post may have a number, but I don't see how to access it.)
... :-) Then you need to read it again. I was disturbed, when repairing the article, sorry ...
Top   #30



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